the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Thanks for sharing. Your experience is quite similar to mine. Many teachers teach Taiji in this way - called danci (words) - rather than the forms. It's the simple stuff that works (if you practise it every day). I started off learning some Xinyi and then began to re-learn Taijiquan in the same way as you are, which quickly became what my master did to get so good - just take the best, most useful "danci" out of all of the systems. In the end, what I do looks almost exactly like Xinyiliuhe, but using techniques from various systems.

In my master's system, there are about 15 core danci right now. One of them is simply the left arm goes up, the right down, then vice versa over and over. It has so many applications that it's ridiculous. I like to use it as a downward strike with the palm heel/parry or as a deadly barrage. Then we do combinations of the fifteen. It's enough. Spar! Solo work is doing the fifteen in Zhanzhuang, then with footwork, some warm-up Jibengong and then Gongli exercises. Simple is good - but actually really complex.

Xinyiliuhe is a really solid system, though. You can't go wrong there. I wouldn't get too caught up in what is what, though, as it seems most of the masters I've met that can fight don't care about what came from what system and just focus on the basics, almost no forms either. Sounds like you found the real deal. Keep us posted.

"the left arm goes up, the right down, then vice versa".... thats pretty much the first drill he has taught me - in Taiji mantis we have it too, but done with more complex shen fa and more hard power (we call it tiao za - raise and smash). Master Shen's is done much more relaxed and natural, you literally just walk and lift your arm then drop it casually. then you start to do different kind of steps and thats where all the crazy applications come in.

chenyaolong wrote:Thanks. He is a unique teacher.

Does anybody know the Wu Taiji 13 palms? From what I've seen so far, it kind of feels like how I imagine Mantis started off... a set of simple techniques that through slight variations open up myriad possibilities for application. It's encouraged me to go back to my Mantis and dissect Luan Jie (the "mother" form) more.

If Shen is teaching you 13 palms you are a very lucky man. He usually starts people with the 5 fists training.

As far as I am concerned, you are learning the bomb! He considers it the most advanced and dangerous of the methods to learn real fighting. He likes in better then Xinyi because it is more stable and powerful and in addition to the striking and kicking of Xinyi has the pushing, Qinna and throwing.

Jay

nicklinjm wrote:I for one would be very interested in the taiji throwing seminar Jay - could you PM me with details?

Hi Nick,

Antony, is trying to nail down a space. Once we do that, I will contact you.

Best!

Jay

Shanghaijay wrote:

chenyaolong wrote:Thanks. He is a unique teacher.

Does anybody know the Wu Taiji 13 palms? From what I've seen so far, it kind of feels like how I imagine Mantis started off... a set of simple techniques that through slight variations open up myriad possibilities for application. It's encouraged me to go back to my Mantis and dissect Luan Jie (the "mother" form) more.

If Shen is teaching you 13 palms you are a very lucky man. He usually starts people with the 5 fists training.

As far as I am concerned, you are learning the bomb! He considers it the most advanced and dangerous of the methods to learn real fighting. He likes in better then Xinyi because it is more stable and powerful and in addition to the striking and kicking of Xinyi has the pushing, Qinna and throwing.

Jay

Thanks man, that's really cool to hear. I've done 2 palms with him so far, then he started me doing some different footwork and a little combo thing where you add a push then a knee and stomp to turn around - that was a bit overwhelming... he showed me this whole little combo like twice and expected me to get it. I'm starting to get a feel for his teaching method, he seems to show you loads of stuff in one go, then kind of sees how much you grasp. Whatever you grasped he will go into loads of detail in the next session.

Don't be afraid to ask him to repeat it over and over.

He is one of these guys that can see something one or two times and do it perfectly. I understand that Sakias could also to this so he tends to think everyone is that way. I just tell him I am physically challenged so I need to see it again and again. Some people don't have the patience for that. It depends on the individual.

Jay

Shanghaijay wrote:Don't be afraid to ask him to repeat it over and over.

He is one of these guys that can see something one or two times and do it perfectly. I understand that Sakias could also to this so he tends to think everyone is that way. I just tell him I am physically challenged so I need to see it again and again. Some people don't have the patience for that. It depends on the individual.

Jay

Yea, it's when he starts explaining all the Shuai Jiao throws I get lost. All I know is I'm on the floor. With striking I have a good eye, so I can pick up that stuff pretty fast.

With Shen I wouldn't worry about labels, just let him know what your goals are and take it from there. Using taiji, as most people know it is as a reference is a mistake, with Shen his taiji has it all and does it all and more. Just trust in the process. This is not the stuff most people ever learn or see. Taiji is not just the passive aggressive art people often joke about it to be that's just one option of many.

Personally, I think if you choose a teacher then you should be willing to trust the direction they take you in. Finding a new teacher or coach and insisting on anything is just bad protocol in my book.

[quote=
Yea, it's when he starts explaining all the Shuai Jiao throws I get lost. All I know is I'm on the floor. With striking I have a good eye, so I can pick up that stuff pretty fast.[/quote]

The Shaui comes from the forms and the touch is subtle and learned in the "panshou" so it is going to take longer to get that sensitivity and understanding. Just go with it.

Interesting.

From looking at clips of the little guy, Shen clearly has the goods, and has a very different (and I would guess more effective) approach to teaching Taiji than most.

Look forward to hearing more about how this all goes.

Here's an update of my training and some more background about Master Shen

http://www.monkeystealspeach.co.uk/travelogue/update-on-training-with-shen-tiegen

We actually just set up a Shen Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Shens-Wu ... tos_stream

chenyaolong wrote:"the left arm goes up, the right down, then vice versa".... thats pretty much the first drill he has taught me - in Taiji mantis we have it too, but done with more complex shen fa and more hard power (we call it tiao za - raise and smash). Master Shen's is done much more relaxed and natural, you literally just walk and lift your arm then drop it casually. then you start to do different kind of steps and thats where all the crazy applications come in.

Sorry for the delayed reply.. I didn't realise that you responded..

It sounds like we are doing the same thing. In my master's system it's called Limao Shangshu (The Civit Ascends the Tree (cat-like mammal, not civil servant)). Yvnu Chuansuo, Danbian and Yunshou should be familiar from Taijiquan. Others are from Xinyiliuhequan, Baguazhang or are special Jins like Chuanzhang or Shuaibeishou. My master can barely (if at all) remember which art the techniques are from. I think that you'll find that they are all similar.

Perhaps Shen Shifu generates his power the XYLH way, perhaps Taiji or others, but, in the end, having some sort of internal power is all that matters and similar techniques can be found in most arts. Yvnu Chuansuo can be seen as a variation to Tuichuang Wangyue in Baguazhang. One is with a fingers-thrust, the other way a palm. I prefer the fingers-thrust, as the shape of the wrist is the same as when you do a vertical punch, whereas the wrist can be injured if punching the Bagua way. Another example is Long Diaobang in XYLH. I much prefer the Baguazhang way, called Hengsao Qianjun, as it more-or-less contains the former, can be done in a barrage, can be done whilst turning, and can be done with different types of footwork. They are quite similar, though.

Whether you have a shocking power or a shaking power (or others) is of little importance. Both are seriously dangerous and take some time to learn, so just stick with one for a while, at least. The rest is just semantics.

grzegorz wrote:We actually just set up a Shen Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Shens-Wu ... tos_stream

Nice one... will like it.

Maarten... sorry the name confuse me as in Mantis they are totally different. For example Yu Nu Chuan Suo for us is a hooked foot sweep with outward wrist strike. Anyway, most of his preferred stuff is from Wu style Taiji. He has shown me a fair bit of XY (not taught it) and compared it to the Taiji techniques I have learnt. For example one technique in Taiji called Wa Tu (digging earth) is very similar to XY horse.

Ha, that's alright. I know the Watu technique. My master doesn't attribute it to Taiji, though. It is a bit similar to horse, without the footwork. In the end you can just mix and match the ones you like.