Paul Andrews and the Xingyi Academy

[Michael Babin]

I've been taught and used [in training situations] a number of specialty shapes of the fist in both Yang style, bagua and xingyi. I also trained them on a variety of striking surfaces and padded people. If you are really well trained, most have use against human targets. The problem may be that in the end very few people in recreational internal martial arts are "really well trained' when it comes to striking and can't carry their striking skills outside of "he punches me, I do this".

I've met some who can and there are always exceptions.

Having taught for some years, the biggest issue I see with recreational training is that too many either don't learn to strike things enough to understand what happens to the target as well as the doer when real impacts are involved... or, as I have often seen in new students who learned elsewhere, that they have learned to ignore efficient and sound body mechanics in the wrist and hands in favour of toughing it out to do it the way teacher taught them. The latter are often the ones whose wrists and/or elbows are shot five or ten years down the road from strengthening some muscles and tendons while ignoring others in the affected arm.

Anyway, my 2¢ and like a lot of other issues, there aren't easy answers.

[Pandrews1982]

The essence of Xing I is elite I breakable structure, the fist made properly is a solid brick with every corner a right angle. And as described the bones are perfectly aligned that each leads seamlessly into the next. When practicing the fist, one practices the intent of pushing the entire body through the knuckles into an opponent much like the blades of wolverine in Xmen, that is how the connection is made. To use finger knuckles is IMO a contrivance and honestly, by the physical nature of the human body breaks the integrity of the structure.

XYLHQ, Xin Yi, Xing Yi, Shanxi Xing Yi, Hebei Xing Yi, various sub-styles from different teachers, personal interpretation etc. There are many different ways of applying xing yi principles, as stated there are a number of fist shapes within my system of Xing Yi. To dismiss something because you haven't seen it before is limiting yourself.

If you don't think it works fine that's okay, but try it maybe. I've been doing this for over 10 years and have numerous guys I've trained with and taught both within Xing Yi and outside which have seen me use this fist effectively. Personally I've never come across phoenix eye in Xing Yi and in most systems I've met outside of my own the fist shape wasn't even spoken about. I can tell you that most of my students even ask me not to use this fist in training because it hurts more than a flat knuckle strike.

The thing is it's a relatively small point in the whole scheme of things, I can only present what I've been taught and what I have used and proven through my own experience, which includes a few broken bones using this fist. As far as I am told this was passed to my teacher by his first teacher who got the understanding from his father, in turn he was taught by his father, who was directly taught by Guo Yun Shen, I have no reason to dispute this and even if I did the fact it works for me is good enough for me.

As for structural integrity when i strike my arms remain rounded rather than aligned in a straight line, this is due to the rounded strength in the structure. The same is so in the fist, you don't need the bones to be lined up to still have a strong structure but you do have to practice the strike.

I can also say that this strike penetrates through padding as we have experimented with this also. We found full fist strikes to be dull through a pad, palm strikes lessened but still gave a sting however the displacement effect often minimised but with a conch fist strike we found that the pain, penetration and displacement were not significantly reduced.

Again I would urge anyone to first try the method before dismissing it out of hand, try it on a bag lightly then heavier, try it on a person and compare methods. If it doesn't work so well for you then drop it. I'm not presenting a single truth but just one which I have personally tested myself for many years and had good success with.

[D_Glenn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIEmgRNsYnM

"Conch shell" fist? , I know that the Phoenix eye is a commonly used weapon in Xing I but I have always been taught a fist is made like a fist, and yes, proper alignment calls for the first two knuckles of the fist to be used upon contact and penetration. Properly executed, when using the Phoenix eye to strike, that knuckle when closing, folds the fist into perfect alignment. The essence of Xing I is elite I breakable structure, the fist made properly is a solid brick with every corner a right angle. And as described the bones are perfectly aligned that each leads seamlessly into the next. When practicing the fist, one practices the intent of pushing the entire body through the knuckles into an opponent much like the blades of wolverine in Xmen, that is how the connection is made. To use finger knuckles is IMO a contrivance and honestly, by the physical nature of the human body breaks the integrity of the structure.

Luo Xing / Conch shape is where you roll the fist by starting with the small finger first and if you look at your hand while Curling-In your fingers it kinda looks like a spiral shell shape. We use this as a Cutting (Cha) fist where middle and base knuckles can do a raking motion. It's also called a knot or Mace fist, where you can rotate your fist around and use the base knuckle of the middle finger to Smash points (za dian).
Phoenix Eye fist is different. This would actually be closer to a Dragon's Eye / Shooting Fist, but even that's different.
A normal fist for punching or Hammering is called a Square Fist and that's where you don't spiral the fingers in but Curl them in all at the same time and make your fist look like a box shape.
Fwiw

.

[Wanderingdragon]

The end result of finishing the fist after specialized use FWIW

[wushutiger]

No that's not true. When you strike a person with a penetrating strike it will displace them, knocking them back and the feedback into you fist and arm is vastly reduced because the structure you are striking has been broken. This is simply not possible with a wall, unless you routinely knock down walls with punches!

Striking something solid but movable such a heavy punch bag is a better training method because there is still the heavy feedback but the give in the bag allows the effect of the penetration and displacement that the wall does not allow.

I really don't have the time or inclination to discuss anatomy and the structural integrity of the fist with you, as I say I can do push ups on this fist, I have been hitting people for years with it, I strike heavy bags with it, I've even broken a few concrete tiles with it. I've never done any specific conditioning to my hands. If you want to test the structural integrity do it yourself, make the fist yourself and try hitting people with it.

This response is ridiculous. That is YOUR video where you are telling people to strike with the middle knuckles of your fingers, so not "having the time or inclination" to explain it is rather poor.

As I said again, its not about striking the wall, its about striking something that gives you quite a bit of feedback, hence you can see where your structure is broken, where your alignment is correct, and where force returns into your body (you said you broke some times correct? well why punch those tiles? same principles as I am metioning about the wall....). You may use a makiwara (a fairly stiff one) for this. Your comment about displacing the enemy is not inline with the discussion right now. When you punch or strike, the purpose is to issue as much of your force into the target, and have as little as possible return into you. This is basic physics. Having moving joints extended, as well as other joints out of linear structure will cause the force (which follows the path of least resistance) to not be delivered into your target but return into you and possbly hyper extend joints or even break your own bones. The purpose of Xingyi quan structure is to enable one to issue the maximum amount of force into the target, surely this is a goal for everyone who practices.

Push ups are not the same thing as punching someone, nor do they create the same shock on your body. Stating you punchpeople is all well and good, but I am asking you to explain why you do it this way.

If you want to talk about anatomy you will find enormous amounts of material supporting the alignment I mentioned, from japanese to chinese to european fighting arts.

"Conch shell" fist? , I know that the Phoenix eye is a commonly used weapon in Xing I but I have always been taught a fist is made like a fist, and yes, proper alignment calls for the first two knuckles of the fist to be used upon contact and penetration. Properly executed, when using the Phoenix eye to strike, that knuckle when closing, folds the fist into perfect alignment. The essence of Xing I is elite I breakable structure, the fist made properly is a solid brick with every corner a right angle. And as described the bones are perfectly aligned that each leads seamlessly into the next. When practicing the fist, one practices the intent of pushing the entire body through the knuckles into an opponent much like the blades of wolverine in Xmen, that is how the connection is made. To use finger knuckles is IMO a contrivance and honestly, by the physical nature of the human body breaks the integrity of the structure.

Wanderingdragon: Thats the point exactly. unbreakable structure. However, the actual phoenix eye isnt really a component of Xingyi Quan.

Micahel Babin: I agree, too many people simply imitate a fist shape without knowing why. I have been doing supplementary iron hand/fist.body training for many years precisely because many years ago I realized striking something in reality is a very different ball game. Furthermore, the condensing of my bones from this has made the amount of force I am able to issue into the target far greater. This is how old generations trained.

XYLHQ, Xin Yi, Xing Yi, Shanxi Xing Yi, Hebei Xing Yi, various sub-styles from different teachers, personal interpretation etc. There are many different ways of applying xing yi principles, as stated there are a number of fist shapes within my system of Xing Yi. To dismiss something because you haven't seen it before is limiting yourself.

Pandrews, I am not dismissing it because I havent seen it. I have been exposed to these fists without a single person being able to explain the structure behind it, and they couldnt compete with the structure proposed by using the first two knuckles instead. Hence I asked you as you promote this fist shape.

As far as I am told this was passed to my teacher by his first teacher who got the understanding from his father, in turn he was taught by his father, who was directly taught by Guo Yun Shen, I have no reason to dispute this and even if I did the fact it works for me is good enough for me.

Other older lines closer to Guo Yunshen did NOT use this fist, mine included, so if the validation for you is that it comes from Guo, you might want to rethink that. I have done CMA for over 20 years and seen many things and tried many things. This fist alignment I refer to is the conclusion I came to through these years of experience, as well as through my teachers. If it was such an important part of Guo's method, then you would have seen his other lines follow, and most definitely seen texts handed down regarding this fist shape.

As for structural integrity when i strike my arms remain rounded rather than aligned in a straight line, this is due to the rounded strength in the structure. The same is so in the fist, you don't need the bones to be lined up to still have a strong structure but you do have to practice the strike.

This rounding of the arms (which is a requisite of all Xingyi by the way) is so force my travel through the body to the tip (the fist). This principle cannot be applied to the tip, which is the fist. the fist is the end of the line, which aims to issue as much of the force that has come through the body into the opponent. So this analogy isnt relevant when referring to the fist and the knuckles.

Again, I am just curious as to your reasoning for promoting this fist based on theory. Afterall, Xingyi has a profound theory (much of it emphasizing the use of the first 2 knuckles).

[GrahamB]

Wushutiger.

Paul has now explained several times how the fist works, why it works and why you should do it. Also other people have chipped in to say they've seen it work. I think you're just one if those 'my teacher doesn't do it like that so it must be wrong' guys. Congratulations on successfully closing your mind.

Punching with the second knuckles is clearly used in xingyiquan - historical photos of masters like Sun Lu Tang (who trained directly with Guo) and Jiang Rong Qiao and others all show 2nd knuckle strikes being employed.

Even in modern times, like this video done by a stunt man you can see it being used to punch people
https://vimeo.com/59828199

Yet somehow these men have managed not to break their hands...

[wushutiger]

Wushutiger.

Paul has now explained several times how the fist works, why it works and why you should do it. Also other people have chipped in to say they've seen it work. I think you're just one if those 'my teacher doesn't do it like that so it must be wrong' guys. Congratulations on successfully closing your mind.

Punching with the second knuckles is clearly used in xingyiquan - historical photos of masters like Sun Lu Tang (who trained directly with Guo) and Jiang Rong Qiao and others all show 2nd knuckle strikes being employed.

Even in modern times, like this video done by a stunt man you can see it being used to punch people
https://vimeo.com/59828199

Yet somehow these men have managed not to break their hands...

No, no he hasnt, and neither has anyone else. In fact, the only people that are referring to any structure are stating the opposite of what Paul is saying. A video of a stunt reel, really Graham? Come on now, do you think that was combat or real????..... Is that the best explanation you guys can come up with?

I think you are just one of those "thats our way and we dont need to explain why" guys. Congratulations on proving your hive mind.

Unfortunately thats where you are dead wrong, there are no photos of this old timers doing that fist, they are doing exactly what I mentioned earlier, holding the fist loosely and angling it forwards, however their descendants all state that they punch with the knuckles, not the finger joints.

Its very simple, this is a discussion where we exchange our understanding. I have explained where I see the problem, you guys havent explained why you do it that way and the science behind it. If you are unable to, thats fine, just say so. No need to be a twat about it.

[Pandrews1982]

wushutiger (Byron?)

Time and inclination. I'm currently on holiday out of the UK I simply don't have time to waste on you. I have no obligation to prove anything to you. That video is a clip from a training workshop, a few seconds from hours of training where we go much deeper into lots of things.

I've already told you why we punch that way, twice or more I think. The spike made by the fingers penetrates into the body like a spear point and helps focus your striking energy into that point. This assists with creating a deep penetrating strike which not only hurts and damages the opponent but breaks their structure and knocks them back.

If I can do a push up on the fist it means the structure of the knuckles is enough to take the majority of my bodyweight, the feedback from the floor is enough to show the structure is strong enough for my purposes. It isn't the same as hitting something correct but that was not the point to begin with.

You speak as though there is only one way to perform xing yi, that there is only your opinion which is valid. If you are going to demand people prove themselves to you then how about you prove yourself, show me your fist and how effective it is, give me some examples, diagrams and evidence your way is better.

It doesn't matter what I say to you because you have already set your mind that you don't like what I do, so why debate with you? Therefore I'm just going to present what I've been taught and that's it. If you don't like it fine, that's up to you, you don't have to use this fist, you don't have to watch my video, it's your choice. That's my last words to you on this subject.

[wushutiger]

If I can do a push up on the fist it means the structure of the knuckles is enough to take the majority of my bodyweight, the feedback from the floor is enough to show the structure is strong enough for my purposes. It isn't the same as hitting something correct but that was not the point to begin with.

With this logic then one who can do push up on his fingers should be able to strike an opponents hard surfaces full tilt without any damage happening top their fingers, or any dissipation of force when doing so correct?

The spike made by the fingers penetrates into the body like a spear point and helps focus your striking energy into that point

The same as pressing a knuckle, with less lateral motion.


Guys, I asked some simple questions, and the key here was that when you align your finger knuckles with the center of your palm (as you stated in your video) the back of the hand is misaligned with the wrist and forearm. This wasnt once addressed, and realistically the crux of my question.

You guys simply dont seem to want to discuss anything logically, then why post here?

[GrahamB]

So I supposed these famous masters are just striking with the foreknuckles because they want to use a 'relaxed fist' and not train the way they fight? Sure…

[wushutiger]

Graham, go look closely at those images, they are not striking with their fore knuckles.

Sun Lutang always emphasized the knuckles, as did Jin Yunting (you may reference his beng quan drawings and photos to see this clearly).

What you see there is the "relaxed" grip of the fist, the alignment you mention is not present in those photos. Take a close look an Sun's beng quan. Look at his Zuan Quan, look at the alignment of the back of the hand with the wrist and forearm.

[wushutiger]

o I supposed these famous masters are just striking with the foreknuckles because they want to use a 'relaxed fist' and not train the way they fight? Sure…

When you are done being a twat (that is if you want to), you will see that I mentioned that the ALIGNMENT IS KEPT while the fist is clenched passively.

The fist is only clenched on impact (or right at the end of the motion for a split second), not all the time. This is what you are seeing in the photos.

Make a standard fist, tilt it forwards as is required in beng quan, then relax your grip a bit. Look at it from the side. What do you see? Yes, thats what I thought....

[GrahamB]

Do you also think we didn't land on the moon?

[wushutiger]

Graham, this is why people dont like interacting with you, you try to make up for your lack of both knowledge and tact with childish humor.

If you dont have anything to add that is productive, rather keep quiet. You have clearly no idea what you are talking about.

[GrahamB]

Actually I'm quite agreeable, and a perfectly tolerable practical martial artist.

I've been doing some digging around and I have some good news for you - you're on the same side of this as Jake Mace! Well done!