Traditionally, Disciple metrics was done how?

[neijia_boxer]

I had always thought the whole disciple thing was two-fold:

1. Student: trained for dedicated long-time (years/decades) with teacher, trusting of a teacher and system. Trained regularly with teacher through all the stages.

Vice verse:

2} Teacher: trusting the student who had been with them a long time (years/decades), received the entire system, gained proficiency and understanding, and trusted to carry that tradition on.

At least that was my observation sensed.

what are the specifics for discipleship the old school way?

I want to keep discussion away from modern times where money can buy anything discipleship.

[Michael Babin]

Hmm... can't go farther back than the 70s for the "good old days" as a white guy who got most of his early training in Ottawa and Montreal.

My first teachers, Chinese and later Jewish, never talked about discipleship. When they saw that I had some real interest as well as ability and came to class regularly, after a few years I was asked to help newer students in the class. Later still, I was asked to take up administrative duties [collecting fees, etc] and eventually I was sent out to run my own classes under their "Banner". None of these teachers handed out certificates or got into the nonsense that I and some of my friends in kung fu were experiencing in other clubs [unpaid labour as instructors; paying extra fees for extra instruction that sometimes never materialized; or the pyramid-scheme approach to recruiting new beginners being forced on us to show "loyalty"].

Was it a good system? It suited me at the time and I learned a lot. Is a stricter, more Father/Adopted Son approach wrong? Not necessarily as that suits some people as well.

Humans are pack animals and hierarchies are part of our basic nature; in addition, many men that I have met over the decades in the internal arts & kung fu seem to be searching for father-figures if they aren't obsessed with being the figurative father. Again, nothing wrong with either inclination as long as there is honesty and awareness in the resultant relationships.

I have known older Chinese colleagues locally who got their kung fu from teachers who were of the generation of WW11 in China and some of the stories they told me about how they proved their loyalty to their teachers seemed extreme or even frightening but those were harder times and in a very different culture from what I was raised in. It might have been appropriate then and there; but it certainly is less appropriate nowadays here in Canada... if not everywhere. There is also always a certain amount of the "Bullshit factor" to be considered when listening to "stories from the good old days" as few instructors want their students to think that they became what they are easily. That too is human nature.

In the end, you have to trust the person who you choose to teach you and vice-versa and both must get something from the relationship for it to thrive and continue.

[taiwandeutscher]

I started in the early 80s, over here in Taiwan: Half a year in the park, I got invited by the instructor to his master's guan. There I trained around 3 more yrs. In the beginning not really with much discipline, so others got deeper instruction. Therefore I decided to give it a try, and after another 3 yrs., I was invited into instructor classes (more than 6 altogether), after some tough testing (written and practical), I was invited to Baishi (ceremony, and a very small sum for the guan). We then were introduced to stricter roles, but also did get much more instruction, especially in neigong and with gloves and mouthpiece, lol! We were also taught in a much more bitter way. We got more, but were required to devote more time and more bitterness to train.
After 8 yrs., the master talked to me about a future teaching task back home in EU, but he understood my decision to go the academic way, no pressure there. When I did translate his writings and publish them, he was very happy, taught me more than I can ever really master. And when he retired completely, he sent me to some of his friends, from different styles, where I broadened my horizon.
The sad truth is, that I'm not more gifted than others. All depends on training, and when I do the maths and compare the hrs he trained with mine, I know, where my limits for this life will be.

[chenyaolong]

Different regions and styles can be very different, but from what I understand in Shandong and particularly the Mantis tradition, is that students and disciples are very different. Regular students were often just a teachers way of earning in income, he would go to a village and teach a large class maybe one or two forms along with it's applications, pretty much like modern day seminars.

Whereas the complete system was usually only taught to relatives, so discipleship was a way of "entering the family".

People were really conservative with their knowledge back then.... I'm not saying it's good or bad... just sharing how my Shifu and others have told me about "back in the day"

[chenyaolong]

My own Baishi was done after about 3 years under my teacher, training daily and spending a lot of time at his home too. He hasn't taken many disciples at all, and refused a lot of people who had been with him 20+ years.... so I had to deal with a lot of jealousy afterwards.

He really took care of me while I lived in Yantai... whenever I had any trouble he was always the first to help. I was basically part of his family.... and he often took me to relatives who lived in the country.

I really value the relationship I have with my teacher. Several of my friends who train with other teachers in Shandong have very similar experiences.

[neijia_boxer]

Thanks for sharing guys.

Most people I know spent 5+ years with a teacher (local/regional) before doing Bashi ceremony. I was surprised to hear of a teacher from overseas (over in Asia) do a seminar last year, and now some students already did Bashi ceremony not even 1 year study.

Seem pretty odd to me.

[Bhassler]

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[neijia_boxer]

Agreed Bhassler. One friend i know was asked after one year. He was not ready , but after 5 years later, went and did it. So yes I agree it does vary.

What do ya'll think about study with a local teacher often and regularly vs. teacher who is long distance and maybe training once or twice a year?

I'd think you need the scrutiny of a teacher to make corrections and a lot of "hands on" often, not something that is very infrequent.

[Niall Keane]

How could a student merit selection for Bai Shi ? Traditionally he had to visit the master for three years and then the master had to visit him for three years. Then after 6 years, if the student showed sincerity and commitment he would be accepted. Naturally this meant that if these rules were rigidly applied many people did not go through Bai Shi. This is indeed true.

Cheng Tin-Hung broke with this traditional rule and had many masters in HK complain and together come to confront him on it, and especially about teaching nei gung, an inside the door practice, early. He told them he would adhere to the 6 year rule if they took up the upkeep of his family, they did not.
Interestingly nei gung, according to the oral tradition was at first the first thing taught (makes sense - training the movement and responses to be "internal"), and only became, due to its effectiveness inside the door later as a cash cow. CTH in effect was returning to the origin. One may chose to infer how this related to the success of his full-contact-fighter students!

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/informatio ... i_shi.html

[Bhassler]

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[chenyaolong]

I think frequency is important to get the flavour of the art.... if you have a good foundation in MA already, you can visit a teacher for short periods and pick things up quickly, but I think it will be much more difficult to pick up the flavour without daily or at least weekly instruction.

[MaartenSFS]

It wasn't that hard for me to become a disciple. My master had seen me training hard at several locations before taking me as a student. Then, after about two months, after he was sure that I was of good character, we did the Baishi ceremony. He encourages us to learn from his peers and their students, as we are a part of the same 'family'. If we want to learn from masters outside of this group we should ask his permission.

In the past it may have taken much longer, but I'm sure that there were more people that wanted to genuinely learn the arts. I am a special case, because I have always emphasized that my situation in China isn't very stable and he had already seen my dedication. It took up to a half year for most of my Gongfu brothers to be accepted as disciples, but most of them didn't train with Shifu daily, as I have.

His main goals are enjoyment and passing on his art. He goes out of his way to teach dedicated students and eventually kind of ignores the others, save for a friendly greeting.

[Wuyizidi]

The following is an excerpt from my master Zhang Yun's article Martial Art Family Systems:

2.3 Master and disciple

The relationship between the master and the disciple is a very special one within the martial arts family system. It is different from a regular teacher student relationship. Within this relationship, a master and his disciple are not only a teacher and a student, but also a father and a son. In traditional way, no one can get real high-level skills from another person before they formally enter into this kind of relationship. This is the foundation of the martial arts family system.

Master is Shi Fu (师父). Shi means master or teacher, Fu means father. So a Shi is someone who has the duties of both a teacher and a father. As a teacher, a She Fu has duty to teach, which consists of three things: 1) Chuan Dao (传道) - transmit the meanings of Dao, here that includes martial virtues and in addition to meaning of life; 2) Shou Ye (授业) - teaching martial arts skill and knowledge; and 3) Jie Huo (解惑) - answering questions, clarify confusions. And as a father, the Shi Fu has the duty to take care his disciple as if he is his own son, according to tradition this covers all aspects of the students life.

Disciple is Tu Di (徒弟). Tu means journeyman, someone who has not arrived at his goal or destination yet, so Tu also means emptiness or nothing. Di is younger brother, so it implies lower level. Together Tu Di means one who knows nothing and is in lower level position, needing to study, or on a path of learning. Another common word for disciple is Di Zi, Zi meaning son. Sometimes to be perfectly clear and emphasize the fact that the student is a formal disciple in the traditional sense, because it’s not uncommon for a regular student (non-disciple) to be called Tu Di in informal manner, one can be called Ru Men (inside the door) or Ru Shi (inside the room) Tu Di.

Why did people need to set up this type of relationship within the groups? There are four main reasons:

First, martial art knowledge is like a dangerous weapon, it can be used to do both good and evil. So the access and use of that knowledge must be carefully controlled. In tradition way, a teacher had no right or duty to control his students’ behaviors, but a master had these rights over his disciples. When a disciple does something wrong, people expect his master to take some responsibility. So a bad disciple can cause major trouble for his master. People thought that only when a master can really trust a student and accept him as a disciple, he can control the disciple’s behavior and then can teach him high-level skills.

Second, the group’s reputation. If someone does some bad things, it does not only affect his own reputation also create bad reputation for the group as a whole. So a master would take time evaluating the student’s personality. If he has doubts, the master can reject him as a disciple. In that case the master and the group would not take responsibility for this student’s behaviors.

Third, teaching martial arts techniques is a very special process, especially for high-level skills. There is only one way to accomplish this, a process called “Kou Chuan Xin Shou (口传心授)”, meaning teaching skill face-to-face and heart-to-heart. Other things can also help, but nothing can take its place. In high-level skill training, the most important things are the changes occurring on the inside and the associated feelings. These things can only be explained when two persons touch each other. Without touching, nobody can really know these. When a master teaches his student these things, he must show his skills by touching his student. Then in turn he must allow his student to touch him, so he can see if the student is right or wrong. Sometimes, to make it easier for the student to understand a skill, the master will not make changes to his movement or position, not even to protect himself. This is of course a very dangerous situation for the master. He is, without any protection, a target for the student. If a master does not fully trust this student, he would not want to do this. Also, this method demands a lot of energy from the master, there will be lost of Qi on his part. So it is also very physically taxing for the master to teach in this way. Because of these reasons, usually a master does not like to teach everyone in this manner, so that it is why people always say that a master would only teach high-level skill to his disciples but not regular students.

Fourth, this relationship help make sure people will really look after each other. The young need education and training, the old need care and support in their advanced ages. When a disciple is young, he needs training from his master. When a master gets older, he needs his disciples to take care of him. This is a very traditional idea. People think the most fortunate thing that can happen to a person is that he has children or disciples that can look after him when he gets older. Regular students have no duty to do this, but disciples have responsibilities not just as students but also sons. Sometimes a master may have no children, and he is dependent only on his disciples, like the great Bagua master Dong Haichuan. After retirement, he lived in his disciple and granddisciple’s homes until he passed away.

When a person want to study with other person, their relationship starts off just like a student and a teacher. When they become much closer, they can become disciple and master. There are many different ways for a master to accept a student as his disciple. For those who started training when they were still children, this process is fairly simple and straightforward. This is because people think it is much easier to teach the young. You can tell them what is right and what is wrong directly and they will follow you. So that most of the time, when a master gets permission from a child’s parents, which means the parents allow the master to take over a part or all of their parental duties from them, he will accept this child as a disciple.

For adult students, it is much more difficult. In that case a master would want to take his time in his evaluation of the student. A grown up has his own ideas and values, if some of that clashes with the interests of the group, it may already be too difficult to correct. At the very least it would take a lot of time. For those who has already studied some other skill in other groups, it would be more difficult. This kind of students, when they want to join a new family, they’re doing what’s called “Dai Yi Tou Shi (带艺投师)”, or “coming in with some existing skill”. That act is called Guo Men Kan (过门槛)”, or “step over the threshold”, going from one room to another. Usually at least three years is required for the master to fully evaluate this kind of student. For this kind of students, especially if he were a disciple in some other groups, the student needs to get permission from their previous masters. If a person goes to another group without an agreement from his previous masters, that group should not accept him. If that group accepts him, it will get a bad reputation because it’s considered stealing. So the first thing to do with this kind of students is to ask him if he received permission from his previous master. He would not be taught without such permission. So for the disciple, he needs to ask his master for permission before he went over to study with other masters. If one is not a disciple but a regular student, no permission from current master is required.

A master needs to evaluate a student long enough before accepting him as a disciple. This is called “Shi Xun Tu” (师寻徒) - master searching/choosing his disciple. This is a silence process. The master will say nothing to the students being evaluated. Traditionally, a master would wait for a student ask him several times before accepting, even if he had already made the decision to accept in his mind. It is very rare that a master would ask a student to be his disciple. A master wants the student to feel that this is a very difficult and serious thing, not something to be taken lightly, but to be approached with all due seriousness. Usually some masters who received this type of tough treatment when he became a disciple will in perpetuate this kind of treat onto his students, go perhaps even further.

This can create a vicious cycle sometimes, making it really difficult to be accepted as a disciple in some groups. Some masters like to open his door widely for anyone who wants to come in. Maybe today we can say this is very nice. But in old days they would’ve received harsh criticisms. People would have thought such a master did not watch his door carefully, meaning his was not a very serious group. This runs counter to traditional standards and mores.

A master has certain duties to his disciples. He must teach them, from martial virtue to physical skills, everything without prejudice or reservation. He can yell and even beat his disciples (the disciples cannot complain about this). If he does not like the disciple’s behavior, he cannot give up on the student. Rather, it is his duty to teach and show the student the right way. A conservative, unfair, or careless master will always receive severe criticism from society.

When a student becomes a disciple, his obligation is to be a good person, to follow and obey his master, to inherit all the skills, to enhance the reputation for the group, and look after his master. This kind of relationship can forge very strong bonds. Many times people develop a warmer and closer relationship in this kind of family than in their own biological family. Often when a disciple joins the family, it’s like he’s being accepted as a member of the master’s real family, and the members of master’s family would treat his like one of their own. This is more likely to happen when the disciple is young. The master’s wife would treat the child like on of her own. It is also very common that young disciples live in their master’s home. The warmth of this kind of relationship can make a person feel he gained a second family.

All disciples under a same master are gongfu brothers (usually gongfu cousins are called gongfu brother too). Three types of brothers have special place within the group, they are: the oldest, the youngest, and the group administrator.

The oldest brother is known as the “open door disciple”, because he was the first one coming into the family when his master first “opened the door” - started to accept disciples. As an assistant of the master, the oldest disciple has a very heavy responsibility to the group. He is in many ways like a vice president of the group. He would manage the group, monitor the classes, help his younger brothers, etc. Because this position is very important, most masters are very careful in choosing their first disciples. He skills may not be the best in the group, but he would have very good reputation and respect of his fellow students, making it easy for others to obey and follow him. He is like the general manager of the group, he’s the one in charge when his master is not around. The oldest brother also has a special right in that he would be the first person in his generation to open the door and accept his own disciples. If he does not open the door, no one else can start accepting students unless he gives up his special right.

The youngest brother is known as the “close door disciple”, because he is the last one coming into the family right before the master close the door - stop accepting disciples. He’s in a very interested position. According to traditional custom, if someone comes and challenges the group, usually he would be the first person taking on the challenger. Since he is the youngest, that means he’s has the least amount of training and is probably the least skilled in the group. So if he won, that implies that everyone else in the group can also beat the challenger. This makes the whole group looks good. For this reason, many masters would wait to close the door until they find someone special, someone very talented. For this reason people say the youngest brother may have the lowest position in the group, but he has the best skill.

The group administrator disciple is called Zhang Men (掌门) Di Zi. Zhang means administer or control, Men is door, referring to the family, and Di Zi is disciple. The disciple in this position is in charge of the group. When the master is there, he acts as a general manager or prime minister of the group. He has primogeniture. After the master passes away, everything of the group that belonged to his master will be passed on to him first. He will become the leader of the group, the new Zhang Men Ren (Ren is person), group administrator. As such, he will be the standard-bearer of the family. Usually the eldest disciple is automatically the group administrator disciple, unless the master appoints someone else as Zhang Men Di Zi.

The group administrator disciple has the most power while often the youngest is the best fighter. They have special status within the group, but these unique positions come with inherit tensions. Some junior disciple may covet the Zhang Men Di Zi position and try to unseat the current one. And then there are others who may think they’re better than the youngest brother, and want to beat him to prove it. These are common reasons for a group’s disintegration, especially after the master passes away...