Consistent speed vs. consistent pressure

[Bhassler]

A common criticism of practice/application videos is that the teacher speeds up for counters or to execute techniques. From my own practice I've noticed that speed often changes while the overall force in the system remains the same, similar to the way that the same amount of water travelling through a hose will speed up if the hose diameter narrows (think of putting your thumb over the end of a garden hose). The movements themselves can feel like the hose analogy, or like a spring being suddenly released, or something similar to leverage like stepping on the end of a rake. The exact mechanics change, but the outward effect appears as if the teacher "sped up" their movement, when in reality something else entirely is happening.

In something like taiji tui shou, where you're working on borrowing the opponent's force, this would be correct and appropriate, whereas in something like Rory Miller's one-step sparring drill, where you're working on economy of technique, it would not be. You just have to understand what you're training with a particular drill.

Just an observation I made (and a bit of editorial) and I didn't want to hijack a thread in the video section.

[willywrong]

A common criticism of practice/application videos is that the teacher speeds up for counters or to execute techniques. From my own practice I've noticed that speed often changes while the overall force in the system remains the same, similar to the way that the same amount of water travelling through a hose will speed up if the hose diameter narrows (think of putting your thumb over the end of a garden hose). The movements themselves can feel like the hose analogy, or like a spring being suddenly released, or something similar to leverage like stepping on the end of a rake. The exact mechanics change, but the outward effect appears as if the teacher "sped up" their movement, when in reality something else entirely is happening.

In something like taiji tui shou, where you're working on borrowing the opponent's force, this would be correct and appropriate, whereas in something like Rory Miller's one-step sparring drill, where you're working on economy of technique, it would not be. You just have to understand what you're training with a particular drill.

Just an observation I made (and a bit of editorial) and I didn't want to hijack a thread in the video section.

Interesting observation. Knowing the difference when doing it yourself or teaching (guiding a student). Having it yourself and passing it on, now that's the real skill.

[dspyrido]

What do students notice - a slow light brush or a smack across the head? Can you strike slowly & show it will hurt? Do it a few times and suddenly the skeptical seem to pay more attention & believe. Of course this can go too far with sudents then believing everything but thats a different problem.

Even worse is denial - do a slow throw or strike, they lock up or move and say "see it didn't work". Surprisingly this concept is also stylistically limited with experienced people who have not been exposed to a tactic/move.

[Bhassler]

In the context of tui shou it's usually more akin to pushing on something and the rug sliding out from under your feet, or suddenly you're locked and the harder you push the more it hurts. It like a carnival ride without all the safeties. I think anyone who's done a stand-up grappling art should be familiar with what I'm saying, though they may use different words.

I've not done the same thing with strikes that I can recollect at the moment. My teacher would demonstrate how it worked with strikes but it wasn't part of our regular practice because (to paraphrase) it was too painful and over too quickly that way. The best practice I've done for strikes is truly speed constrained. Basically, everything is full on except done really slowly, so if you're hitting in the nose you actually aim for the nose and have good structure and drive through, it's just done slowly so it's not damaging. It maintains relatively accurate physics, though, as far as how the strike will affect someone and whether or not you were actually in range to be effective, etc.

Rory Miller breaks it down in his book on Drills, and much of my own articulation sits squarely on the shoulders of what I've learned from Rory and Marc MacYoung (though I'm nowhere near their level and they would probably say I missed the whole fucking point).

[Wanderingdragon]

Yes it's called loss of control, chasing your balance, losing your center, at the higher levels it doesn't happen, it is just a change that you did or did not expect necessary.

[Bhassler]

Hey WD,

Not sure I follow what you're saying. Can you provide more context?

[Wanderingdragon]

To many words always confuse the issue, IMO, I'll use a taught spring for instance, if you let it go with no thought it whips away out of your control, though if you maintain you influence as you release the spring, you know exactly where it is going. A qualified teacher has to have that same control when offering demo and explanation, his knowledge should be that, that there a no surprise to be offered by the student, that would force the spring to fly out without his knowledge or control, speed and force should only ever happen by intent, not by tension.

[Bhassler]

Okay, got it, thanks. I'm not sure I agree, though. At some point you have to let the system do what the system does. Not necessarily in a lecture/demo setting, and not necessarily with students who aren't at a level where they can understand and handle whatever they put in coming back out in an unexpected and nasty way, but at some point always trying to force control is antithetical to training for an inherently chaotic and disadvantaged situation (with regards to self-defense).

Probably we're talking across each other and it all could be sorted out in about a minute if we were face to face (with sandwiches and beers).

[Wanderingdragon]

Yeah, I think were probably on the same page, the control ispeak of is not so much. I controlling ones self or the opponent t but the ability to change as necessary, as would be in a true altercation. My point is that the teCher should be able to the I tensing of his reaction.

[klonk]

First time I saw kali I was like WTF is with the drum solo, but then I saw it. It is to them what a metronome is to a musician. You cannot cheat on the tempo because the tempo is a given.

[klonk]

A further though occurs to me. I owe some of my insight on this subject to John Wang who posts here, but it is perhaps common sense. What is your finishing technique? That is to ask, when is the fight over? It is safer for you if your opponent is unable to continue: Jumping above him with a showoff move is not getting you there.

[Wanderingdragon]

In fighting, tempo is an eratic timing. In finishing one must always be aware that there may be more.

[Bhassler]

A further though occurs to me. I owe some of my insight on this subject to John Wang who posts here, but it is perhaps common sense. What is your finishing technique? That is to ask, when is the fight over? It is safer for you if your opponent is unable to continue: Jumping above him with a showoff move is not getting you there.

It varies greatly depending on the context.