Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby wushutiger on Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:51 pm

I thought so ... that's why the question is silly. Evidence for what? I bet it's not the name tai chi you want proofs about.... ::) I won't spend time collecting evidence. I have nothing to prove, and no intention to satisfy you with an answer to any request. However, a lot of sources about San Zhanfeng and the earlier tai chi names can be found in the early good days of Black Belt mag. in the historical article series between 1962 and 1968. Do yourself a favor and do a good research and read some quality articles, better than most of what is written today about the subjects. Most of the articles can be found on books/google. Or why not search on that miracle page called Google.com?


Well its exactly because I have researched this and read as much as possible from various researchers, including sifting through whatever historical evidence there is available that the opposite is more likely the case, and that the Zhang San Feng myth was a myth. Unfortunately, google is one thing, serious academic research is another. Opinion is one thing, as everyone has one, but deducing a conclusion by realistically looking at historical evidence, including logical thinking, is something that will generally reap greater rewards.
User avatar
wushutiger
Wuji
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:45 am

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby edededed on Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:54 pm

edededed wrote:I think that, until maybe the mid 1900s, taijiquan's creation was traditionally ascribed to Zhang Sanfeng by almost everyone, wasn't it? Today, some groups still traditionally place Zhang at (or near) the top of their lineage charts - I think that the Zhaobao people do, too (they are close to Chen village).

Finny: Your quest is to make your GF a total neijiaquan nut. :D Good luck!


Sorry, I forgot to finish my thought. :D

Anyway, I wonder if the whole erasing Zhang Sanfeng from taijiquan history was related to Chen village's emerging eminence at the time, plus the Communist Party's desire to remove Daoist sages from the history for good. Since prominent figures of taijiquan from the Yang, Wu, Sun, etc. lineages all talked about Zhang Sanfeng; plus, we have "recently found" lines near to Chen like Zhaobao who also keep Zhang Sanfeng in their lineage charts - so it seems strange that it would start to be left out by Chen style.
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4130
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby edededed on Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:56 pm

(Also, to clarify: I am not supporting or rejecting the argument that Zhang Sanfeng was in fact the founder - various texts describing him never seem to mention any martial arts skill, unless they are martial arts documents; his appearances seem to happen over a period of several hundred years; so probably a lot about him is fantasy, although I guess he probably did exist as a person some time in some form.)
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4130
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby wushutiger on Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:20 pm

Ed:

There is a whole lot more to take into consideration when looking at the relationship and politics between the Chen village and Zhaobao, especially when Zhaobao is trying to prove otherwise about the Chen village origins........ The research about Zhang Sanfeng/Taiji is older than the Communist party, but I am impressed that people think the CCP had this at the top of their agenda after a civil war, a war with Japan, and the new control of the country......

I would suggest people revisit Stanley Henning's piece as a starting point:
http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/henning.html
User avatar
wushutiger
Wuji
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:45 am

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby edededed on Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:32 pm

Thanks for the source, wushutiger. Well, it was just a hunch ;D It may be that the Zhang Sanfeng idea was introduced by Yang stylists at some point (such as some of the sources Henning mentions), but if the Zhaobao (and others') lineage charts were not just made up recently (we don't know), it may be that the Chens gave the Zhang Sanfeng idea to Yang Luchan, and later it was removed... but since we only have sparse written records, it's certainly hard to prove.

On the other hand, the CCP was probably not to be taken lightly back then, either... I like the anecdote about Li Ziming, for example, who wrote "comrade" in the hand-written manuals for one of his students, Sui Yunjiang (story on the Web somewhere) until many years later when the atmosphere was less volatile, and he made a new copy where it said "disciple" instead :D It could be just being extra-careful, but - you never know!

(BTW, have you practiced any of the bagua with Di? (You're sort of my bagua uncle... ;D ))
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4130
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby Bao on Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:50 pm

wushutiger wrote:Well its exactly because I have researched this and read as much as possible from various researchers, including sifting through whatever historical evidence there is available that the opposite is more likely the case, and that the Zhang San Feng myth was a myth. Unfortunately, google is one thing, serious academic research is another. Opinion is one thing, as everyone has one, but deducing a conclusion by realistically looking at historical evidence, including logical thinking, is something that will generally reap greater rewards.


I don't believe you. You are not interested and have already made up your mind about things. I tried to lead you to academic research with sources and parts of translations proving that San Zhangfeng has historical roots and that Tai Chi history is earlier than Chen style. It's historical facts and if you are so sure about something else, pls explain your own scientific research and prove me wrong.

Now, where "tai chi" begins and if what San Zhanfeng did was close to what can be called tai chi to day or not is another thing. I have never stated that San Zhangfeng invented tai chi. Neither was Tai Chi invented in the village. If the original early Chen style resembled or was close to what could be called the first tai chi, it certainly looked very different from how Chen style looks and is taught today. What boggles me is that people say "Chen style is the first tai chi" and then they mean how Chen style normally looks today and how it's taught to the public. No one demands proof of the Chen village claims, but everyone demands proofs for the San Zhangfeng myth. I have never seen any records that prove that Chen Style is the first and original Tai Chi. But because you are so academic, I assume that you can guide me.... :P
Last edited by Bao on Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9032
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby wushutiger on Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:13 am

I tried to lead you to academic research with sources and parts of translations proving that San Zhangfeng has historical roots and that Tai Chi history is earlier than Chen style.


Ermm....where exactly did you do this? Translations of what exactly?

Are you saying that taiji styles today are not linked to Chen style?
Last edited by wushutiger on Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
wushutiger
Wuji
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:45 am

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:58 am

wushutiger wrote:
I tried to lead you to academic research with sources and parts of translations proving that San Zhangfeng has historical roots and that Tai Chi history is earlier than Chen style.


Ermm....where exactly did you do this? Translations of what exactly?

Are you saying that taiji styles today are not linked to Chen style?

He's saying that Black Belt Magazine is the academic source. :D

.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5308
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:09 am

戚繼光 Qi Jiguang (1528 – 1588) wrote a book on military and empty-hand arts. This English translation is only the TOC, introductions, notes, and Chapter 14 ~ the empty-hand section. ~ http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a268051.pdf

I. THE AUTHOR

Qi Jiguang was born to a Ming era military family on 10 January 1528.

The family line passed the hereditary rank of an assistant commander of the Dengzhou Guard, which Qi Jiguang attained in 1544 upon the death of his father, Qi Jingtong.
...

IV. POSSIBLE INFLUENCES UPON THE TEXT

A military life and career awaited Qi Jiguang from birth. Once born into a military family, Qi naturally found himself thrust into military studies. The Dictionary of Ming Biography notes that Qi's father, Qi Jingtong, "saw to it that he receive a well-rounded education in the Classics and literature in addition to the military arts." Qi Jiguang's confidence in "fist methods" in the "Quanjing" suggests this cultural education may very well have included some martial arts training, if not in a military context then probably in a self-cultivation or hygiene (health-maintenance) framework. Qi Jingtong may have prescribed boxing lessons for his son Jiguang, although one finds no written record of such lessons. Even if Qi Jiguang had no childhood experience in martial arts, he himself recalls having trained as an adult under a Liu Caotang in Zhejiang province.

Chapter 14 considers thirty-two stances and techniques used in hand-to-hand combat. Each technique has a metaphorical name which describes the stance or motion relative to things the student can visualize. Names such as "crouched tiger" and "golden rooster" provide model images which help the student properly execute a technique. Qi's "Quanjing" chapter uses many of the same names or similar names as Taijiquan. This does not imply that the "Quanjing" illustrates Taiji techniques. (Different martial arts schools can share common metaphorical names while the actual techniques differ. Taijiquan's "fair lady weaves at shuttles" technique sounds similar in name to the gongfu "shuttle weaving" exercise, yet the two boast little similarity.) Not all of the "Quanjing" positions readily share names with modern Taiji counterparts, but of those that do (about eight), most reveal technical similarities. The San Cai Tu Hui, published in 1607, presents good sketches for each position. These sketches depict men performing the exercises, many of which resemble modern Taijiquan techniques. The similarities between the Taiji and the "Quanjing" elements point to a possible common heritage.

A sixteenth century boxing master Zhang Songqi founded a Daoist martial arts tradition, called "Neijia Pai" (Internal School), to counter that of the Buddhist Shaolin Temple. Eager to acquire prestige for his school, Zhang Songqi named Zhang Sanfeng as its Daoist "patron saint" [*]. The Wang Zhengnan Muzhi Ming (Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan), written in the seventeenth century, outlines the Neijia lineage from Zhang Sanfeng to the Ming military commander Wang Zhengnan. The tradition spread to north Zhejiang province and by the sixteenth century had become "more a method of military training than of physical self-cultivation.

Qi Jiguang may have been exposed to this militarized boxing form during his tenure in Zhejiang. (The Neijia school, founded on Daoist precepts, bases victory on yielding to an opponent's force and exploiting his weak points rather than overpowering him with physical strength. The "Quanjing" similarly asserts "weakness begets strength.")

The Epitaph highlights one famous master in the Neijia lineage named Wang Zong. Tseng Chiu-yien believes that Taijiquan became erroneously linked with the Neijia School (and hence with Zhang Sanfeng) because Chinese historians confused Wang Zonq with Wang Zongyue, the founder of a different boxing tradition in Henan. (Tseng believes that in the Nineteenth century a man named Yang Fukui merged Wang Zongyue's techniques with Shaolin Gongfu, thereby developing Taijiquan. ~ Tseng Chao-jan (Tseng Chiu-yien), "Taijiquan Quanshu", pp. 37-38) This line of argumentation would question any proposed evolutionary connection between the "Quanjing" fist methods and Taijiquan. Their similarities could suggest that modern Taiji may have borrowed from the Neijia School after Qi Jiguang had written the Jixiao Xinshu, or even from the "Quanjing" itself.


The Shaolin Buddhists earned a reputation for their gongfu boxing skill by the seventh century A.D. Tang Taizong petitioned the Shaolin monks' assistance in 621 when he fought against his chief rival, the Sui rebel Wang Shichong. The monks joined Taizong and helped him defeat Wang at the nearby city of Luoyang. Their martial arts mastery had proven to be a military asset.

Martial arts and unarmed combat techniques had attained a de facto position in the army by the late Song Dynasty. They may not have gained enough significance to warrant address in Song military treatises, but they certainly had found a niche in the soldier camps. Ming officials resurrected the emphasis on martial arts during the sixteenth century. The Japanese pirates raiding the coast demonstrated far better close-quarter combat skills than the uniformed Chinese soldiers. Thus, government officials attempted to augment the standing armies by recruiting "Chinese individuals capable of acrobatic performance--including boxing instructors [and] Buddhist monks...as an answer to the challenge."

Qi, who led the Chinese resistance to the pirate assaults, apparently embraced this fledgling trend and gave it greater import by incorporating it into his training regimen, and ultimately into the Jixiao Xinshu. The Training and discipline as described in the Jixiao Xinshu would transform "those who [could not] be strong" into those who could. The Jixiao Xinshu "Quanjing" chapter illustrates the fundamental martial skills that comprise the basis, Qi contends, for all higher military prowess.


Some more info related to the ^ above - "IV. POSSIBLE INFLUENCES UPON THE TEXT" section:

Wuyizidi wrote:From http://www.amazon.com/Combat-Techniques ... 583941452/:

Chinese martial arts emerged several thousand years ago and evolved from the simple to the complex and from low level to high level. Through generations of martial artists, many principles and skills were developed and some, unfortunately, were lost. Lacking a continuous written record, we know only that many of these skills were high level and that many great masters won widespread recognition and renown. The details of the techniques they used, however, are no longer known.

From the historical records that can be verified, we know that most of the styles and training methods we inherit today date from the Song Dynasty (960-1297). They showed rapid advancement during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644), and were completely systematized by the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). During the Ming Dynasty and the Qing Dynasty, Chinese martial arts became highly developed and gradually separated into two main groups: Waijia Quan or the external martial arts and Neijia Quan or the internal martial arts.

1.1.1 From External Martial Arts to Internal Martial Arts

...

The earliest records of Waijia and Neijia concepts come from three articles written within fifteen years of each other and in nearby locations. They are: "The Tombstone Inscription of Mr. Wang Zhengnan" by Huang Lizhou (1669); "Neijia Quan" ("Internal Fist") by Huang Baijia (1676); and "The Biography of Zhang Songxi" in the 1683 version of "The Government Records and Annals of Ningbo City” (figure 1-1).


1-1 "The Biography of Zhang Songxi"

These articles provide valuable information regarding the time period during which the Neijia concept emerged and the facts surrounding the development of Neijia and its differentiation from Waijia. The articles also provide details about the Neijia’s defining characteristics.

It is from these three articles that we know the new martial arts style of Neijia Quan was developed to a high degree and widely disseminated from the Ming to the Qing Dynasties. It advanced its own principles and had a clear lineage although its origins remained unclear. Many people believe that Zhang Sanfeng, a famous Daoist priest of Wudang Mountain, was the founder of the internal martial arts.

Many people consider that the Ming and Qing Dynasties were the golden era of Chinese martial arts. During the Song Dynasty martial arts spread quickly despite a lack of encouragement from the government and despite more than four hundred years of war and turmoil throughout the country. The Neijia style, as a new and unique style, did not emerge until the Ming Dynasty, during which time many different styles were developed and their skills elaborated in great detail. General Qi Jiguang's book “Ji Xiao Xin Shu” (Fig. 1-5) is our primary source of information about this period of high development in the Chinese martial arts. From it, we know that many high level skills and concepts were developed at a rapid pace. Neijia, however, is not mentioned in General Qi Jiguang's book. From this fact, we believe that Neijia was not a popular style at the time the book was written.

1-2 "Ji Xiao Xin Shu"

The Neijia Quan style was taught in the north, middle and southeast of China, but it was not popular and disappeared within about a hundred years of its emergence. Although some masters claim they still practice the original Neijia Quan style today, there is no independent proof that their skills are the original ones. As the original Neijia Quan skills were developed and practiced by different masters and groups in different areas, the name and principles of the style became diversified into three great styles, Xingyi Quan, Taiji Quan, and Bagua Quan. These styles arose at different times and embodied the concepts of the original Neijia Quan in different ways.

In about 1892 in Beijing, a group of great masters representing each of these styles convened under the leadership of Bagua Master Cheng Tinghua. They decided to unite the three styles under the renewed name Neijia or Neijia Quan. After some initial resistance to this grouping of Neijia martial arts into one family, the idea was accepted and became popular. Today, it has become widely recognized. Because the original Neijia style was lost, the term Neijia family today usually includes its three offspring: Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi.

Based on the three seminal articles, it is generally thought that the new martial arts style of Neijia Quan was practiced in the Ninhbo and Wenzhou areas of southeast China from about 1500 to 1700 and that Zhang Sanfeng, the Daoist monk from Wudang Mountain invented this style. Subsequently, Wang Zong of Shanxi became famous for his Neijia skill, and he transmitted his knowledge to Chen Zhoutong who, in turn, brought the style to his hometown of Wenzhou in Zhejiang Province. After Chen Zhoutong, there were several generations of famous Neijia Quan masters.

Except for the identity of the originator of the style, the Neijia lineage described in the three articles is widely accepted as true for several reasons. The author of one, Huang Lizhou, was a very famous scholar; the author of the second, Huang Baijia, was a direct student in the Neijia group; and government records from the period are considered to be highly trustworthy. Only the assertion that Zhang Sanfeng was the originator of the Neijia style is held in some doubt.

* ~ "Zhang Sanfeng 张三丰 (1271-1368) of the Yuan dynasty was said to have had interactions with many historical personages whose existence can be verified, such as Liu Bingzhong 刘秉忠 (1216-1274), and later Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, the Prince of Qiyang岐阳王, and Shen Wanshan沈万山. Zhang Sanfeng’s disciples from the late Yuan/early Ming are known, such as Qiu Yuanjing 邱元靖, Lu Qiuyun卢秋云, Li Suxi李素希, Pu Shanyuan蒲善渊, Sun Biyun 孙碧云, and others, and he is known to have had contact and influenced other well-known Daoist figures."


.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5308
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:01 am

D_Glenn wrote:
wushutiger wrote:
I tried to lead you to academic research with sources and parts of translations proving that San Zhangfeng has historical roots and that Tai Chi history is earlier than Chen style.


Ermm....where exactly did you do this? Translations of what exactly?

Are you saying that taiji styles today are not linked to Chen style?

He's saying that Black Belt Magazine is the academic source. :D

.


There was a golden age in the early days of BBM with articles from excellent scholars, doctors and professors in academic subjects as History and Sinology. Many texts and books today about chinese martial arts are based on these texts. I gave this as a source as many of the old classical chinese texts were translated by these scholars. It takes longer time to look up books and titles with the same original Chinese sources. If you don't know about these authors, you know very little about the modern research of Chinese Martial arts.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9032
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:04 am

wushutiger wrote:
I tried to lead you to academic research with sources and parts of translations proving that San Zhangfeng has historical roots and that Tai Chi history is earlier than Chen style.


Ermm....where exactly did you do this? Translations of what exactly?

Are you saying that taiji styles today are not linked to Chen style?


??? That was a stupid question.

You have no clue about how to prove that Chen style was the original Tai Chi.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9032
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby wushutiger on Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:46 pm

Bao:

You are making ridiculous assumptions now. We know full well the roads leading to all the styles of Taiji today, and who they came from. The influece is clear and so is the history.

You have indeed no clue to say what was or wasn't the original look of taiji, no one does.... but rhetoric and legends aside, we can trace things to the Chen village and wenxian county. Enough serious research has been done into this topic by some serious researchers (apart from black belt magazine), an example of which I linked above. The Zhang Sanfeng idea is a nice legend, but doesn't hold water under serious scrutiny.

And indeed the opposite of what you state is more true, namely that you have no way to prove Chen wasn't! Your personal opinion as to what it looked like in the past is irrelevant.
Last edited by wushutiger on Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
wushutiger
Wuji
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:45 am

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby Franklin on Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:35 pm

back to the originally scheduled show--

xingyiquan must have been a really boring production to watch..
wonder how long the running time was?


;D
Franklin
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1382
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:56 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby wushutiger on Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:47 pm

xingyiquan must have been a really boring production to watch..
wonder how long the running time was?


LOL! ;D
User avatar
wushutiger
Wuji
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:45 am

Re: Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

Postby GrahamB on Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:13 am

I love the fact that you guys are still (still!) arguing about who created taichi!
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13582
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bill and 40 guests