Martial arts as theatre, theatre as martial arts

[GrahamB]

But to insist that theatricality was the primary purpose of most/all TCMA is nonsensical. We know enough about the masters of even the most flowery and least practical of TCMA, Taijiquan, to know that there were hardcore badasses in the lineages: warriors, escorts, bodyguards, fighters.

You see, I think this is the point where Scott's theory gets misunderstood and people get all upset with him and we had what we had last time - YOU HAVE INSULTED MY SHAOLIN TEMPLE WITH YOUR LUDICROUS SUGGESTION THAT MY FOREBARES WERE DANCERS AND YOU ARE BANNED!

But he's not saying anything is just one thing - rather that many things are intertwined together. In the words of the man himself :

"my position is that any movement can be effective martial arts. Or put another way, the dichotomy between form and function is Western and not well suited to movement traditions that have been around long enough to develop countless affordances. The proper dichotomy is "form and emptiness" (xing and xu). All technique is both form and empty."

In regards to the Chen question - I too would like to hear further clarification from him since the Chens themselves don't link Zhang San Feng to the lineage - that came from the Yang side. However, it's totally possible that the connection died out in the village, and Yang Lu Chan got it from Chen Chanxing, his teacher. But who knows. I'd like to know more, but I think the video he says he's creating will probably be the best bet, since, as I've discovered, a visual presentation of the material is by far the most useful. It really gets lots in words.

[taiwandeutscher]

..... Or put another way, the dichotomy between form and function is Western and not well suited to movement traditions that have been around long enough to develop countless affordances. The proper dichotomy is "form and emptiness" (xing and xu). All technique is both form and empty."


That is just plain wrong.
Maybe he is a nice dancer, but he for sure not an educated expert on Chinese philosophy. As he doesn't read Chinese, he should go and study, before talking nonsense!

[GrahamB]

"Emptiness is form, form is emptiness" is certainly a Eastern idea, is it not? I thought it was a tenant of Buddhism, from the Heart Sutra, for example?

[taiwandeutscher]

Yeah, a 1000 years behind 體用 or even more!

He has no idea, what ever you say to defend him!

[GrahamB]

I can't understand what you're saying

[edededed]

I think that, until maybe the mid 1900s, taijiquan's creation was traditionally ascribed to Zhang Sanfeng by almost everyone, wasn't it? Today, some groups still traditionally place Zhang at (or near) the top of their lineage charts - I think that the Zhaobao people do, too (they are close to Chen village).

Finny: Your quest is to make your GF a total neijiaquan nut. Good luck!

[Bao]

I think that, until maybe the mid 1900s, taijiquan's creation was traditionally ascribed to Zhang Sanfeng by almost everyone, wasn't it? Today, some groups still traditionally place Zhang at (or near) the top of their lineage charts - I think that the Zhaobao people do, too (they are close to Chen village).

It's not a myth depending on what you consider the first tai chi chuan to be. Predating Chen style are various texts about Zhang Sanfeng who is mentioned together with the names "Neijiaquan" and "Shisanshi" (13 postures, an exercise that is linked to tai chi chuan practice in various texts). There is no doubt that this mystical character as well as tai chi chuan has historical roots that predates Chen style. Every move in tai chi, as well as slow practice and exercises similar to push hands are also to be found in Shaolin and Chang Quan. That Chen style should be the first version of Tai chi chuan is more fantasy and has less historical proofs than any other tai chi myth.

[wushutiger]

Predating Chen style are various texts about Zhang Sanfeng who is mentioned together with the names "Neijiaquan" and "Shisanshi" (13 postures, an exercise that is linked to tai chi chuan practice in various texts). There is no doubt that this mystical character as well as tai chi chuan has historical roots that predates Chen style.

Care to post any evidence where Zhang Sanfeng and the term Taiji QUAN exist together that predate Chen style?

In Huang Zongxi's text we find the name Zhang Sanfeng associated with Neijia Quan, but that doesnt mean Taiji Quan.

So please do share what you are referring to......

[Bao]

Predating Chen style are various texts about Zhang Sanfeng who is mentioned together with the names "Neijiaquan" and "Shisanshi" (13 postures, an exercise that is linked to tai chi chuan practice in various texts). There is no doubt that this mystical character as well as tai chi chuan has historical roots that predates Chen style.

Care to post any evidence where Zhang Sanfeng and the term Taiji QUAN exist together that predate Chen style?

In Huang Zongxi's text we find the name Zhang Sanfeng associated with Neijia Quan, but that doesnt mean Taiji Quan.

So please do share what you are referring to......

Don't be silly. Tai Chi Chuan was not called so until a student of Yang Lu Chan labled the art of his teacher tai chi. If you care about the name, Yang style is the original tai chi and Chen style is still just Chen Family boxing.

[D_Glenn]

'all of today's styles descended from Shi San Shi, one of the five original Taiji Quan Styles."....

should be :all of today's styles descended from Shi San Shi, the only one original Taiji Quan Styles.

remenber chen changxing and chen you ben were same 14th chen , youben created a new form which tang hao saw in1930.

since 2003, many evidences founded be fore chen chang xing and chen you ben all the way through to chen wang ting's teacher and grandteacher's teacher . wait , soon it will be in book stores.

Actually, according to oral tradition (and the Zhang Sanfeng origin theory is a part of that, unless you can offer concrete proof), there are originally 5 styles of Taiji Quan:

1. Xiao Jiu Tian (Small Nine Layer Heaven):
   The oldest of the five styles, it came from Han Gongyue of Liang Dynasty about 1,600 years ago. No one knows if he learned it from someone else or he created it himself. Of his students, Cheng Lingxi was famous. Cheng lived in Xiouning County of Hui Zhou. For meritorious service during battle, he was reward the governorship of a Jun (consisted of five counties). After Cheng Lingxi, there were no famous people in this style until Cheng Bi. Cheng Bi was a high level official during the Song Dynasty, around 1140 AD. It was he who gave it the new name of Xiao Jiu Tian, instead of just Taiji Quan. He also wrote some articles on its principles.
   
   
2. San Shi Qi (Thirty-Seven Postures):
   Xu Xuanping was a hermit who lived in Chengyang Mountain during Tang Dynisty, around 1,400 years ago. He was described as tall, with long flowing beard and hair. He was said to be able to run as fast as a horse. Everyday he came down from the mountains with firewood to exchange for wine in the village below. Li Bai, one of three greatest poets of Tang Dynasty, wrote a very well-known poem about his own experience of trying and failing to find Xu.
   
   Xu’s Taiji Quan had another name - San Shi Qi, or Thirty Seven Postures, since it consisted of thirty seven postures. Movement-wise it is very similar to the Taiji Quan we practice today. When people studied this style, they would practice each posture individually, and then they would combine the movements together into forms freely; it may be long, short, or never-ending. For this reason people called it Chang Quan - long fist. Xu wrote several famous poems on Taiji Quan principle.
   
   It is said that after another nine hundred years, Song Yuanqiao became famous for this form. And that his distant descendent Song Shuming brought this style to Beijing in the 1910’s. There is an article titled “Description of Song Style Taiji Quan Lineage and Branch” by Song Yuanxiao, brought to us by Song Shuming, that listed the names of all the postures within Song Style Taiji Quan as well as some lineage information.
   
   
3. Xian Tian Quan (Pre-Birth Fist):
   Li Daozhi was a Daoist priest in Nanyan Temple of Wudang Mountain during the Tang Dynisty. His style was known as Xian Tian Quan. Xian Tian means going back to nature. Later on it was passed onto the Yu family of Jing County of Ningguo Fu. Several of the Yu family members, such as Yu Qinghui, Yu Yicheng, and Yu Lianzhou, became famous for this style. Li wrote a poem about its high-level principles called Shou Mi Ge, or Song of Secrete Transmission. In it he described the relationship between Dao, qigong, and martial arts.
   
   
4. Hou Tian Fa (Post-Birth Method):
   Hu Jingzhi lived in Yangzhou during Tang Dynasty. His style was known as Hou Tian Fa, or the training methodology for going back to nature. Within this style, there are sixteen elbow strike techniques. All of these are very useful for practical fighting. Of his students, Song Zhongshu was famous. In later generations, Yin Liheng was also very famous.
   
   
5. Shi San Shi (Thirteen Postures):
   Zhang Sanfeng’s Taiji Quan is known as Shi San Shi, or Thirteen Postures. It is said that this style had two major branches: the Northern Style and the Southern Style. For centuries, the Southern Style produced great masters like Zhang Songxi, Wang Zhengnan, Huang Baijia, and Gan Fengchi, etc. However, today this style is extinct4. In the Northern Style, Chen Zhoutong, Wang Zongyue, Jiang Fa, Chen Changxing, and Yang Luchan, etc, were famous5. Every style of Taiji Quan that we practice today came from this style. So today when people say Taiji Quan, most of the time they meant the Northern Style of Zhang Sanfeng’s Taiji Quan. The popular descendants of this style today are Chen style, Yang style, Wu (Quan Yu) style, Wu (Wu Yuxiang) style, and Sun style.

In one of the Chinese articles you posted, the name Song Shuming came up. What was Song Shuming's claim to fame within martial art community? That he was a direct descendant of of Song Yuanqiao (famous master of 37 Posture style) right? We have written proof of that claim in the form of his book “Song Yuanqiao Shu Ji Taiji Quan” (Description and Record of Taiji Quan by Song Yuanqiao) published around 1916.

One of the famous Taiji Quan masters of the time, Xu Yusheng describes Song this way in his book “Taiji Quan Shi Tu Jie”, published in 1921:

There was person named Song Shuming who told people that he is a descendent of Song Yuanqiao. He was a long time advisor of Xiangcheng (Yuan Shikai)*. Proficient in his understanding of Yi Jing, he was also very skilled in Taiji Quan. He made original contributions to the art. As a good friend of mine, he stayed with me often. I received many genuine benefits in my training from him. Other teachers from my martial arts school like Ji Zixiu, Wu Jianquan, Liu Enshou, Liu Caichen, and Jiang Dianchen, etc, also studied Taiji Quan with Song.

* Yuan Shikai was the last prime minister of Qing Dynasty. He became the first president of Republic of China between 1912 - 1915 after the overthrow of Qing Dynasty. Song Shuming was Yuan's Ji Yao Mi Shu ("secretary for most vital matters"), member of the inner circle of advisers.

Today not many people talk about the other original 4 styles because they are for the most part extinct. But in the early part of 20th century in Beijing, not only were all of these oral legends common knowledge, but in fact at least one other style - Hou Tian Fa, was still practice by a small group of people. That's why masters like Wu Jianquan were curious and sought him out. These masters went to Song as students, rather than as equals. Such was his skill.

Putting the claim about being Song Yuanqiao's direct descendant aside, we are still confronted with these facts about Song Shuming:

1. he's a real historical person, independent verified by official sources outside of martial art community,
   
2. he was a real, high level taiji master (you cannot fake that, certainly not in front of people who studied with Yang Banhou and Quan You)
   
3. he did not study at Chen Village, which didn't open its doors to outsiders until Yang Luchan, no one at Chen village knows about him,
   
4. none of the small number of non-Chen Village masters who studied with Yang Luchan taught him
   
5. today Song Shuming's articles feature prominently amongst the Taiji classics, they are widely respected and highly original.

From these facts we can safely conclude Chen village was not the only source of Taiji Quan in 19th century. This lends credence to the legend of 5 originally styles, or at least the legend about there being northern and southern transmission of Zhang Sanfeng style.

Wuyizidi

.

[wushutiger]

Don't be silly. Tai Chi Chuan was not called so until a student of Yang Lu Chan labled the art of his teacher tai chi. If you care about the name, Yang style is the original tai chi and Chen style is still just Chen Family boxing.

I know full well the origin of the name. Still waiting for your evidence of texts stating Zhang Sanfeng and Shi San Shi together that predate Chen.....

[Bao]

Don't be silly. Tai Chi Chuan was not called so until a student of Yang Lu Chan labled the art of his teacher tai chi. If you care about the name, Yang style is the original tai chi and Chen style is still just Chen Family boxing.

I know full well the origin of the name. Still waiting for your evidence.....

I thought so ... that's why the question is silly. Evidence for what? I bet it's not the name tai chi you want proofs about.... I won't spend time collecting evidence. I have nothing to prove, and no intention to satisfy you with an answer to any request. However, a lot of sources about San Zhanfeng and the earlier tai chi names can be found in the early good days of Black Belt mag. in the historical article series between 1962 and 1968. Do yourself a favor and do a good research and read some quality articles, better than most of what is written today about the subjects. Most of the articles can be found on books/google. Or why not search on that miracle page called Google.com?

[Bhassler]

Don't all of the major branches of taiji trace their roots directly back to Chen village, though? If so, it really doesn't matter who or what might have been called taiji in the past, if everthing goes through the village then wherever the village stuff comes from is where taiji comes from, no?

I'm not intending to argue, that just seems like a big gap in the San Zhanfeng argument that I've always wondered about.

[Bao]

I'm not intending to argue, that just seems like a big gap in the San Zhanfeng argument that I've always wondered about.

Well... IMHO, the simple problem is that no one single person created what today is called tai chi chuan. It's very much a collaborative effort from generations of "masters". It's unfair and similar unfair to state any "villager" or Zhang Sanfeng as The Creator. Where or when it started is always a personal, subjective opinion.

[Bhassler]

I think I don't disagree with the meat of what you're saying, but I also think there are some pretty well known and documented historical facts. Certainly how those facts are interpreted is subject to opinion, but I don't think it's rational to propose an entirely alternate version of history as the origin of the art which ignores those facts, as some people have done (not meaning you).