SANTI-TRAINING

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby Doc Stier on Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:52 am

Image Image Image

Postures like the Three Circle Stance and San-Ti Stance are difficult postures to really relax into at first, especially if you are standing for a prolonged period of time. In fact, I think the most common mistake for beginners is that they try to
progress too fast for quick energy gains, only to injure the body both externally and internally, which creates setbacks and delays while recuperating. Like all internal training methods, standing practices have the potential to hurt you or to heal you, depending on quality of performance and how long you stand for.

I was taught to stand for no more than 3-5 minutes per practice session to begin with, and to yield the entire body to the downward pull of gravity, especially the hands, elbows, and shoulders. All of the joints should be relaxed as much as possible, and should all be curved or bent as a result. This includes keeping the hip, knee, and ankle joints curved and relaxed as well.

In this way, a feeling of great heaviness comes over the body, especially in the legs and feet. The soles of the feet may even feel a hot, burning sensation during the practice. And the shoulders will feel as if they are being weighted down from above, while the elbows will feel as if they are being pulled downward by weights suspended from them by cords. This initially feels uncomfortable and/or sore for most people, but will quickly pass as your whole body gets stronger when you continue to stand daily.

Similarly, the knees will feel as if they are supporting heavy weights placed on top of them, while the hips will feel as if they are being pulled downward by weights suspended from them by cords. Thus, all of the joints will have a rounded or curved appearance when observing your posture in a mirror, and every part of the body will feel heavy in response to the downward pull of gravity.

In order to maintain the posture for even 3-5 minutes in the beginning, some muscular effort will be needed in the legs, especially on the tops of the thighs, but not in the muscles on the back of the upper legs. Some muscular effort will also be necessary in the calf muscles on the back of the lower legs. Likewise, muscular efforts to hold the arms in position will be needed on the front surface of the upper arms (biceps), but not on the back surface (triceps). The muscles of the rear shoulders and tops of the shoulders bordering the shoulder joint will be engaged as well, but not the muscles of either arm between the elbow and the wrist.

When the proper posture of the body can be maintained in these ways, with the feelings described, for 3-5 minutes without break or pause once per day, then begin to increase the time by adding 1 minute of additional standing time to the daily practice each week until you can stand for 30 minutes or longer at each practice sesion. So, for example, when you feel comfortable standing for 3-5 minutes per day, without pain or soreness while standing, and without straining with painful trembling or spasmodic shaking, then only can you add another minute to the daily standing time. This slow and gradual development in the practice does alot to prevent injuries to the muscles, tendons, and ligaments, or straining injuries to any of the internal organs.

"Take it slow...your chi will grow. Progress too fast...you'll never last!"

Doc :)
Last edited by Doc Stier on Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby JANAV635 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:52 pm

Thanks, i feel like 3 minutes is a lot but i will shoot for 3 today. My body is very weak so this is extremely hard for me.
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby GrahamB on Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:49 am

Doc - that site you got the picture from is fantastic - they have essentially stolen and even worse, modified various pictures out of Sifu Lam's Way of Energy.

http://www.energy-for-health.com/energymedicine.html

Those energy thieves! ;D
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby jjy5016 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:21 am

Zhan zhuang practice has been a major part of my training for many years now. In all that time I've never heard of anyone or had any of my classmates or students get injured from standing for extended periods of time and going through the phases of shaking, thundering, bouncing, sweating etc. I've only seen gains in strength which is one of the prime purposes of doing zhan zhuang.

If someone came to my teacher only willing to stand in san ti for 3-5 minutes he'd tell them that they were lazy and that no gain would come from such a short session. Zhan zhuang is work. Meditation is meditation. While they can be combined at some later point one is very hard work and one is relaxation. I'm pretty sure that Sun Lu Tang used to demand an hour in san ti from his students before he would teach them the five fists. I don't believe that it was for the purpose of weeding out the lazy ones or lengthening the initial training for the purpose of getting more money out of the students.

In my experience teachers who only asked 3-5 minutes from students in standing postures were the ones who taught for a living and needed to keep the classroom full to pay the rent.

Sorry to seem harsh but there are just so many misconceptions about standing and its proper practice that it makes me nuts sometimes.

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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby Walter Joyce on Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:05 am

Chris McKinley wrote:Yeah, you're right. Nobody wants to train outside anyway; ya get all sweaty and stuff, and it's too far from the fridge.


I'm not suggesting that you meant standing is an easy method, but I have sweated copiously during standing at times.

Even when I was an indoor student, or should I say a student indoors?
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby everything on Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:37 am

In my experience teachers who only asked 3-5 minutes from students in standing postures were the ones who taught for a living and needed to keep the classroom full to pay the rent.


I don't believe anyone giving this advice to Janav here is trying to keep his tuition payments flowing. If someone is doing zz to build strength, it's a double waste of time.
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby JANAV635 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:00 am

When you say Zhan zhuang do u mean any static posture in the xinyi or I-Chuan schools? This question is for JJY5016 so do you recommend that i stand for several minutes on each but how long? Once i get the shakes and have to get out the posture, what should i do, relax for a few seconds or minutes and get back into the stance? Or switch to the other side? How many minutes would you recommend on each side for a beginner?
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby jjy5016 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:33 am

everything wrote:
In my experience teachers who only asked 3-5 minutes from students in standing postures were the ones who taught for a living and needed to keep the classroom full to pay the rent.


I don't believe anyone giving this advice to Janav here is trying to keep his tuition payments flowing. If someone is doing zz to build strength, it's a double waste of time.


Read it again. I said "teachers who only asked 3-5 minutes"

I can say this from much experience and stand by it.

If you don't think the practice of zhan zhuang builds up strength then you either haven't tried it
or weren't taught properly. It builds ridiculous strength. Different types as well.

Jana I do mean all of the postures. Doesn't matter whether we call it hsingyiquan or yiquan. The principles are the same. Personally I believe that the evenly weighted postures are better off to start out with so one can strengthen the body equally. But if you insist on starting out doing san ti then I would shoot for at least 15 minutes on each side. You have to endure through the shaking. This is when the changes to the bones, tendons & ligaments take place.

Afterwards it's important to take a walk to return the body to it's normal state. Master Han would make the students do stretches and other exercises instead of walking afterwards.

Do you have a teacher or are you practicing this on your own?
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby JANAV635 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:55 am

I am practicing on my own. But i had formal training in the past so i have an idea what to do. I know the standing is what builds strength no doubt about it, thats why i really want to get feed back on it. I heard from a guy that from the standing he became strong enough, that when he fought he was able to spar with guys 80 lbs heavier than him with ease. I am looking for a class in NYC that works with my schedule but have not found one. Does the 10animal/Muslim xingyi do standing?
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby somatai on Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:59 am

oes the 10animal/Muslim xingyi do standing?........yes
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby JANAV635 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:05 am

any one on this post from NYC?
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby jjy5016 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:40 pm

Jana, check your pm.
"I kew evibady. I squeegee him - like dis. STAND me?"
I'm always careful to lift the seat when IP
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby JANAV635 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:44 pm

whats pm?
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby GrahamB on Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:23 pm

your web-fu is weak...
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Re: SANTI-TRAINING

Postby somatai on Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:30 pm

there is a good xin yi liu he teacher in boston.....don't know this chap in nyc, but worth a look.


http://abledo.com/index.html
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