Li Yaxuan on True Relaxation.

[Bao]

Had all forgotten about this text and I have only had a glimpse in it. Thanks to WindWalker who posted the link. http://sitekreator.com/zmq37/writings.html
From Li Yaxuan’s 35 Points on Push Hands Training, Translation by Scott Meredith.

Li Yaxuan is said to be Yang Cheng Fu's very best student.

You have to achieve relaxation, but without forcing it. When you practice, think of relaxation, the concept or even the word, with your whole heart and mind. With consistent high-quality practice of a long period, you’ll begin to achieve real relaxation. And only then can you issue energy as described above. If you practice with adherence to the concept of “balancing hard and soft”, you’ll never get anywhere near the real state of relaxation, even if you practice your entire
life. So just keep working on relaxation alone in your daily practice, keep thinking only of that. Holding the idea of “balancing hard and soft” will guarantee that you'll never realize the power of true relaxation.

The quote sums up my thoughts very well. To understand how to use tai chi principles you can not rely on structure, technique or "Holding the idea of 'balancing hard and soft'". What Li does is obviously pointing at Chen Style. Couldn't agree more.

[Bob]

No offense to anyone here but this hauntingly sounds a lot like Zheng Manqing:

Gateway to the Miraculous: Further Explorations in the Tao of Cheng Man Ch'ing
By Wolfe Lowenthal

https://books.google.com/books?id=tcM0K ... es&f=false

[windwalker]

No offense to anyone here but this hauntingly sounds a lot like Zheng Manqing:

Gateway to the Miraculous: Further Explorations in the Tao of Cheng Man Ch'ing
By Wolfe Lowenthal

https://books.google.com/books?id=tcM0K ... es&f=false

It also sounds like what a lot of other noted taiji masters have said,
Does this change the meaning?

there is a tremendous advantage in being aware of what the Professor called "Independence," the idea that precedes movement.

The key question for most people being how to train this.

[middleway]

What is the goal of this relaxed state In people opinion? What does reaching this state mean to you personally?

Interested in the responses

Thanks.

[windwalker]

In my practice and for those I work with, the "relaxed state" is to be able to feel ones own intention at work, and sense others.
Only when this is done can one understand what empty and full mean.

[middleway]

You didn't mention the Goal of the training. Or is the Short term goal to feel ones intent then, ultimately, the long term goal to understand 'empty and full' ?

Is there any goal beyond these two things?

thanks.

[windwalker]

You didn't mention the Goal of the training. Or is the Short term goal to feel ones intent then, ultimately, the long term goal to understand 'empty and full' ?

Is there any goal beyond these two things?

thanks.

The how is not really important IMO, having said this there are tried and proven methods, the method used is up to ones self.
taiji is said to be about "empty and full, open and close"

is there anymore then this? To feel and know what is called "intent" is in itself quite an undertaking, once known ones training can really begin.
Just getting to this part can take awhile.
I'm sure others have different trainings ideas, these are what I use.

You didn't mention the Goal of the training.

Everyone's practice is different, For myself and those that I work with, the "goal"
is to get "it" just as past and present masters have done.
The use of ones practice is up to ones self.

[Bao]

No offense to anyone here but this hauntingly sounds a lot like Zheng Manqing...

I think you should read the whole text before making any conclusions. While ZMC spoke with mysticism and very much in riddles, Li's text is very, very practical. There's a lot of hows and whys. "Just never even slightly violate the principle of no gaps, no resistance. If you depart from this principle you are no longer practicing Taijiquan, you are just bashing each other around pointlessly." ... and: "You must also practice free-sparring and competition fighting regularly. If you don’t have these opportunities to train your agility of movement, sharpen the energy projected from your eyes, and your understanding of sudden and ferocious issuing of energy, when you face an enemy intent on hurting you for real you won’t be able to handle it." Not many masters who claim to understand "the power of relaxation" demands their students to engage in free sparring and in competitions.

And another pointing at Chen Style: "Nowadays there are many so-called Taijquan masters who claim to teach and embody the original ancient forms and methods of Taijiquan, but they stamp their feet, wildly bouncing and banging themselves around - what kind of relaxation is that?" I just love this guys way to say what many other teachers just keep their mouth shut about.
(Just to make things clear: I don't want to bash or trash every Chen stylist. There are plenty of Chen stylists who practice real tai chi and understand the principles that are found in other styles as well. Most Tai Chi out there is crap, regardless style. Too limp, too hard etc.)

Just a memory: I experienced a tai chi group that was visited by a master. He's teaching relied very much on using structure in different ways. I was very surprised, because after the visit, the group's tai chi took another turn than before. Using the masters teaching as a foundation, they seemed to forget about relaxation and many of them become very stiff. The ones I have met over the years use obvious force and are really easy to handle.

[middleway]

Sorry i am not trying to be difficult. I am interested in the Learning process and how people structure their personal training hence the question.

I wasnt asking the 'how', more asking the 'Why'. My question is, Where is this training leading? Whats the long term goal?

Why have i asked this question? I see a lot of comments on what things should be to be correct, what is the right way, what is the wrong way, who is good, who is not, what is authentic, what is not, who is a master who is not.

But I VERY rarely see the reasons that people pursue a specific idea. Is it for fun? for a health goal? for a fighting goal? for tricks? or ... as i have found is often the case people simply don't know what their goals are.

Defining what the Long term goal is, for the individual, perhaps the hardest question to ask. Defining a shorter term goal should be an easier one to answer.

As a coach my first question to a student is now 'What are you looking to achieve in the long term?" Then we can define the process to get there via the short term.

Hence me asking for personal goals of this specific outlook.

All the best.
Chris

Note : It is worth noting that everyones long term goals are not the same, even within the same school. But the job of a coach, as i see it, is to create the training methodologies and the logical steps to help someone head towards that goal.

[middleway]

I note that you edited your post after i had posted:

Everyone's practice is different, For myself and those that I work with, the "goal"
is to get "it" just as past and present masters have done.

Do you know what "it" is? And what will you do with "it" when you get it? This sort of thing is very hard for most people, to not have a definitive direction ... It is like aiming at a fog from a within a cloud.

happy training.

[windwalker]

I note that you edited your post after i had posted:

Everyone's practice is different, For myself and those that I work with, the "goal"
is to get "it" just as past and present masters have done.

Do you know what "it" is? And what will you do with "it" when you get it? This sort of thing is very hard for most people, to not have a definitive direction ... It is like aiming at a fog from a within a cloud.

happy training.

I do and those that I work with do,
many are long time taiji practitioner from other styles who have come to their own understanding of their
lack of understanding.

Really dont care about "most people" only myself and those that come to work with me.
It may take awhile for "most people" to come to understand that they'er missing something in their training.

I would suggest as others have done to look at past masters and some present masters for guidance in understanding the direction that one wants
to follow.

[UniTaichi]

Hi Windwalker,

I wanted to posted a thank you to you for the link on Li Yaxuan in the Huang Xixian tread. His explanation is very close to what I 'do' especially No.32 point (3) and (4)

(3) Before you issue energy, think of slightly relaxing and sinking your chest, think of your energy penetrating the opponent. Accompanying your issuing of energy with this thought is the only way it’s going to succeed. If you are totally without any such intention, your energy won’t have any effect. Take careful note of this.
(4) When you issue energy, all the following must penetrate the opponent: your spirit power; your intention; your mind; and your qi energy. You must control all these with your mind up front before issuing energy. Otherwise your blast will lack that drilling-in type of effect.

In my experience , when I am issuing energy/fajin, I need to have the intent to eg. send the other away, and maintain the image in my Yi and send the energy into him.

Middleway,

If you read the point from 1 to 32(of35), you would find the 'goal' that you are asking. In nearly all the points, he is trying to really put into those reading it, the idea of relaxation and how it enable one to reach the higher level, which is using energy/Jin and intent/Yi. Along the way, your tingjin and dongjin, etc, are all improved.

The difference IMO between bodyworks/bio-mechanics and using energy/intent is what one feel. In bio-mechanics one feel extra-ordinary Power. In using Energy/intent as Body, one feel unexplained Control and Power.

Somewhere in LYX book is said that ZMC is his younger gongfu brother. Below is a documentary of LYX ;

http://youtu.be/0g8dBqDuoDY

Cheers,
UniTaichi

[Bao]

What is the goal of this relaxed state In people opinion? What does reaching this state mean to you personally?
Interested in the responses
Thanks.

"The power of relaxation"... There's really some great power to be found there. Timing, sensitivity, strength, many things can be found from relaxation.

Nowadays, I rather speak about "emptiness" than about "relaxation". It took me about 20 years of practice to really understand how to use relaxation and how to maintain this state of emptiness. When I relied on structure as well or compromised relaxation, sometimes my Push hands was good, sometimes I could be easily over powered. Sometimes I was frustrated that I could not found out what made my push hands weak or why I sometimes easily lost. The goal I guess to find the potential of it and take the whole of your art to a new level. There are, IME, many things that can not be discovered or not really understood if you don't invest to reach this level. For me it was like having a shade in front of or something clouding my vision for 20 years. And suddenly, I saw everything so much clearer. Not everything about this discovery was about "relaxation", but taking relaxation to a new level is certainly something that connected many things together. I can add that, like what Li Yuanxuan states about free sparring and competition, I believe that free sparring and push hands against artists from various styes and backgrounds was really important to take my tai chi to a new level and to understand "the power of relaxation". IME and IMHO, there's nothing strange or mystic about "relaxation". It's a way to make sense of IMA principles in a most practical manner. I don't know if this make any sense, but I don't know if I can explain it better. Some great MMA fighters and boxers seem to be supersoft as well. I don't know if this is exactly the same, but there might be several ways to reach it or discover it. Maybe you could call it a "place" or "state" that you discover, and just somewhere you choose to be?

[Bao]

. In nearly all the points, he is trying to really put into those reading it, the idea of relaxation and how it enable one to reach the higher level, which is using energy/Jin and intent/Yi. Along the way, your tingjin and dongjin, etc, are all improved.

Sums it up pretty well, thanks.

[yeniseri]

You didn't mention the Goal of the training. Or is the Short term goal to feel ones intent then, ultimately, the long term goal to understand 'empty and full' ?

Is there any goal beyond these two things?

thanks.

For me, I enjoy the practice-journey and "relaxation" is secondary although it used as a structural foundation so other parts of that relaxation would be maintained over time while influencing other neurological and psychological processes. If you only maintain 'relaxation" during practice and leave it until next practice then that is indeed different.
Initial goal is probably to secure some type of physical mastery of one kind or another (short term) while the yangsheng part allows for further realization of said goal. For tea to have a certain 'flavour', you have to leave it for x period of time and take it out based on taste/strength. Pushing the tea to allow to sink to hasten that process is rarely beneficial.