Yang Family Sorcery?

[Pennykid]

I have read accounts of Yang Jianhou, Yang Chengfu, and Tian Zhaolin placing a hand on an opponent's chest or abdomen and f**king them up. Not a strike but a placing of the hand. Is this something specific to the Yang family of old or are there other stylists out there that have demonstrated this?
Is it from martial arts training or chinese magic?

If there has been a thread on this already, please link me to it. I couldn't find one, though.


Scott

[charles]

placing a hand on an opponent's chest or abdomen and f**king them up.

You'd have to define what you mean, exactly, by "f**king them up". Rupture organs, lose balance, crumple to the ground...?

[chenyaolong]

is it just something like a one-inch palm? it's easy to imagine over the last 100 years or so stories getting exaggerated... in China they have a habit of overly revering the skill of past masters, Chinese have a thing about romanticising the past.

[Pennykid]

Tian Zhaolin's son wrote of a martial artist coming to town and looking for the top local guy to test his skills against. He was told Tian was the big gun in the area so he went and challenged him. Tian suggested a challenge of them hitting one another two times each to determine who had superior power. The challenger agreed to it. Tian went first and lightly placed his palm on the fellow's chest. The man's face quickly started to contort with pain and he leapt away. He acknowledged Tian as having truly supreme skill.

Fu Zhongwen spoke in an interview about an incident at some gathering he was attending with Yang Chengfu. Yang was doing push hands with various attendees. One of them started getting aggressive and clearly wanted to have a go at Yang when Yang placed his hand on the fellow's abdomen and the man instantly vomited. End of aggression.

In both accounts there was no mention of a strike of any kind. Just a placing of an open hand and an instant dramatic response.
Meeks said it was possibly a form of chinese magic the Yangs kept to themselves. Being a lover of strange abilities, I'm hoping someone is familiar with this skill.


Scott

[windwalker]

is it just something like a one-inch palm? it's easy to imagine over the last 100 years or so stories getting exaggerated... in China they have a habit of overly revering the skill of past masters, Chinese have a thing about romanticising the past.

Once one meets some who can do what was written about, the stories are no longer stories.

[Bao]

is it just something like a one-inch palm? it's easy to imagine over the last 100 years or so stories getting exaggerated... in China they have a habit of overly revering the skill of past masters, Chinese have a thing about romanticising the past.

Once one meets some who can do what was written about, the stories are no longer stories.

+1

Being a lover of strange abilities, I'm hoping someone is familiar with this skill.

Ok, here's my take. IME, it's not a very strange ability and not a very rare skill at all.

I don't think the examples were about just putting a hand there. It might look like there's nothing to it, but it's really more a kind of a hidden palm strike. Some people claims experience of teachers just putting a hand on their chest and so, but that's another thing. What the "Masters" were really known for is called short or sudden force in Yang style. It's a kind of one inch punch, or rather no inch punch, but it has nothing to do with Bruce Lee's very visible "winding up the body method". Here, there's seemingly no winding up, no preparation. Yet it's a fast, sudden movement. The body, chest, arms must be completely relax, but the posture must be good and the feet well rooted. I would say that the method is more or less just about relaxing into an opponent (though it's a very sudden move). The skill part is to keep the hand and body relaxed when you hit the opponent. It might seem as no big deal, but when you are doing a movement or punch against something, it's very easy that the body gets affected in different ways and it's very easy to tense up. When it comes to all kind of relaxed punching methods, you really need to practice a lot, preferably daily over a longer period of time to get rid of the reflex to tense up, as well as to learn how to keep your alignment and body posture intact as you hit the surface. There are several ways to practice this kind of palm method mentioned, or sudden force, and in fact the body mechanics behind it can be quite complex, with several different vectors of movement collaborating together. But it's always hidden and the power seems to come from nowhere. But again, there are very practical ways to study and practice these methods. Earlier there were some good examples on the youtube with people perfuming short or sudden force. I couldn't find them when I did a search for maybe a year ago, but they might there on the youku or similar chinese sites. I will take a look and post if I find something.

I remember when I was shown this kind of palm method for the first time. A visiting teacher did this very lightly on all of the students (not many, maybe eight or ten people in the group), putting his palm on our chests and pressed gently and not very fast at all. One girl thought it was so uncomfortable that she felt sick and had to sit down. She quit her practice and never came back to the class. As a note, the teacher of this teacher would never push one far away when he practiced push hands, but rather sneak in his hands inside the opponent's guard and issue this kind of power, gently but enough for his students to learn to not ever let anyone put their hands against them.

As I have read Li Yaxuan lately, it seems appropriate to quote him:

”your approach must be so subtle then when you apply your touch he can’t feel anything coming but is suddenly jolted with an electric shock”
...
”If your strikes do not penetrate deeply within him, you have not yet cultivated sufficient inner force. In this case you still haven’t utterly relaxed and you are still constrained by your reliance on physical force. ”

Hope his clears things up a little bit.

[Pennykid]

Thanks, Bao. That is an encouraging post. If you can find and post those vids I would certainly love to see them.

So, is this skill something that seems to be found mostly in taijiquan, or is it spread around all good internal systems?

[leifeng]

You don't need to be a martial arts master to do this. Some of those qi vampires can drain your energy just by standing close to you.

[Bao]

Thanks, Bao. That is an encouraging post. If you can find and post those vids I would certainly love to see them.

So, is this skill something that seems to be found mostly in taijiquan, or is it spread around all good internal systems?

Thanks. I will

There should be at least something similar in some bagua lineages. If they are influenced by tai chi, I don’t know. But I think it comes most natural in tai chi. It's like a consequence from tai chi practice, sometimes more discovered than actual being taught.

Of course this kind or power or attacking method is just one of several in Tai Chi. Frankly, I don’t think that this is one of the most useful. It can be impressing and surprise an opponent. But it has limitations. You need to get close and have a good stance. In fighting, can you always get so close? Also, it needs a certain alignment, distance and angle. Opportunity should be quite limited. And you can't really force opportunity, or can you? So it's definitely more suited in a push hands environment. But there are also studying methods on how to change one ”energy” or attacking method into another or even combine two together. When you understand several different energies, or ”qualities” and start to play with them and change between them… then you get to a point where Tai Chi starts to get really interesting. Tai chi has a lot to discover. Not so much to learn compared with many other styles, but a whole lot to discover as you practice and dig deeper into the art.

[MaartenSFS]

This sort of thing is definitely real and, as Bao said, is more than a simple touch. There is a very systematic way to train it and I am starting to exhibit a bit of this power myself. As noted, it is not always the most practical thing to use, but it is another [dangerous] tool to put in the box. This is not limited to Taijiquan. There are many arts with this sort of training.

[kenneth fish]

Master Park Boknam used to demonstrate this when he came to my school to do seminars. He would place his hand on someones chest or belly and they would almost immediately look like they wanted to puke or pass out. Master Yang has done this to me as well. Its not esoteric. Its just well controlled short force.

[WVMark]

Ok, here's my take. IME, it's not a very strange ability and not a very rare skill at all.

I don't think the examples were about just putting a hand there. It might look like there's nothing to it, but it's really more a kind of a hidden palm strike. Some people claims experience of teachers just putting a hand on their chest and so, but that's another thing. What the "Masters" were really known for is called short or sudden force in Yang style. It's a kind of one inch punch, or rather no inch punch, but it has nothing to do with Bruce Lee's very visible "winding up the body method". Here, there's seemingly no winding up, no preparation. Yet it's a fast, sudden movement. The body, chest, arms must be completely relax, but the posture must be good and the feet well rooted. I would say that the method is more or less just about relaxing into an opponent (though it's a very sudden move). The skill part is to keep the hand and body relaxed when you hit the opponent. It might seem as no big deal, but when you are doing a movement or punch against something, it's very easy that the body gets affected in different ways and it's very easy to tense up. When it comes to all kind of relaxed punching methods, you really need to practice a lot, preferably daily over a longer period of time to get rid of the reflex to tense up, as well as to learn how to keep your alignment and body posture intact as you hit the surface. There are several ways to practice this kind of palm method mentioned, or sudden force, and in fact the body mechanics behind it can be quite complex, with several different vectors of movement collaborating together. But it's always hidden and the power seems to come from nowhere. But again, there are very practical ways to study and practice these methods. Earlier there were some good examples on the youtube with people perfuming short or sudden force. I couldn't find them when I did a search for maybe a year ago, but they might there on the youku or similar chinese sites. I will take a look and post if I find something.

I remember when I was shown this kind of palm method for the first time. A visiting teacher did this very lightly on all of the students (not many, maybe eight or ten people in the group), putting his palm on our chests and pressed gently and not very fast at all. One girl thought it was so uncomfortable that she felt sick and had to sit down. She quit her practice and never came back to the class. As a note, the teacher of this teacher would never push one far away when he practiced push hands, but rather sneak in his hands inside the opponent's guard and issue this kind of power, gently but enough for his students to learn to not ever let anyone put their hands against them.

As I have read Li Yaxuan lately, it seems appropriate to quote him:

”your approach must be so subtle then when you apply your touch he can’t feel anything coming but is suddenly jolted with an electric shock”
...
”If your strikes do not penetrate deeply within him, you have not yet cultivated sufficient inner force. In this case you still haven’t utterly relaxed and you are still constrained by your reliance on physical force. ”

Hope his clears things up a little bit.

Disclaimer: I don't train any Chinese arts and can't replicate "internal" power (yet)

From my experience, I've seen, primarily, three kinds of issuing power that have no windup. In other words, place palm on chest and issue power. Not one inch away.

1. Something the teacher called "dragon back". Sorry, have no clue if this is a valid Chinese term or name for it. He could put a palm on your chest and issue power from no windup. This was the least generated amount of power out of the three. He would roll his spine and send out power like a whip to his hand. I wouldn't call this "internal" at all, but it could generate power. It was limited in its use, too. It also took time to go through the spinal motions to generate the power. Least of the three but that doesn't mean it lacked power.

2. The second I'll call "store and release" kind of power. This is more an "internal" kind of power and if trained properly, can generate a good bit of power. Again, from a palm on the chest with no windup. The power has the capability to be devastating. This kind of internal power is slower than the third since you have to store before you release. Since it's slower, it can also be avoided in a dynamic encounter.

3. Not sure what to call this one. For me, it's just internal power. There is no windup, but doesn't need to store before releasing. It's just there. The power can be devastating. It doesn't rely on vectors, body alignment, posture, timing, etc. Very useful in dynamic encounters as you aren't relying on anything to issue power.

Take an example from BJJ. Person issuing power has their back on the mat, mounted securely. In this scenario, the power example #1 is useless. Can't be used effectively. Too hard to roll the spine to get power as your back is flat on the mat. Also, too slow. The guy on top can avoid or counter easily. Now, for power example #2, sure you can issue power from here. It can be devastating. Placing a palm on the guy on top's ribcage area and if you are successful in your issuing power, yeah, break some ribs. Do some internal damage. But, the problem with #2 is that a good BJJ guy can feel that kind of power coming a mile away. Easily avoided. Which is where we get to the third example of issuing power. SInce there's no action of storing, and the power is just there, it's extremely hard to see or feel it coming so it's very hard to avoid. It's bone breaking power that can also do penetrating damage to the body. Of the three examples, #3 is by far the most useful in a dynamic encounter. And it isn't narrowed to just hands, elbows or a shoulder bump. It can be knees and feet, too.

The first example isn't all that rare. The second is uncommon but can be found in Chinese arts primarily. The third is rare.

[kenneth fish]

Could someone tell me how to post a gif like this?


https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CGeA3FNU8AIw-rH.mp4

[charles]

Disclaimer: I don't train any Chinese arts and can't replicate "internal" power (yet)....

The first example isn't all that rare. The second is uncommon but can be found in Chinese arts primarily. The third is rare.

The three of these are one. In Chinese martial arts, bowing and un-bowing the spine along its length is one of the 5 major "bows" of the body. The "Dragon Back" is an example, one implementation, of this. It is a mechanism of "storing" and "releasing", the analogy of which is the bending and unbending of an archer's bow. The spine "stores" when bending and "releases" when straightening. When the storing and releasing mechanisms, of which the spinal bow is but one, are done sufficiently small, as is often the case with skilled practitioners, there is nothing physically obvious to see - the practitioner appears to just "touch" an opponent.

The above is part of the mechanism for all movement in a variety of styles of "internal" arts. If done quickly and abruptly it is "power". It isn't one mechanism for slow, softer stuff and one mechanism for when one wants "power".

[windwalker]

master zhang yonglaing, my teacher also has this kind of skill although just reading the posts it seems to be different.

Its not something that he would teach others directly. a close friend of mine asked him directly to teach him this, master zhang asked him why would he want to learn such a skill.

I would say that the realization of the skill like other skills comes from indirect training that leads to the development
of many skill sets of which this is just one.