Reviewing Routines/Forms - or Forgetting Them

[edededed]

Whether routines (forms) are useful or not is often debated, but I think we all agree that they are the hardest to remember!

I've myself learned quite a lot of xingyi and bagua routines, plus quite a few weapon routines as well. I also remember one mantis set, and am struggling to keep one taiji long routine in memory I think I still have them in my brain after being quite lazy in practicing for the last year or so... but I'm not sure how long my brain cells will retain them...

I know quite a lot of the guys on the board have learned multiple styles from multiple teachers - it must be even harder for you guys to keep these in memory - so how do you do it? Or do you just let them disappear from the gray matter?

[taiwandeutscher]

No, never! As I get older forms work is very important for me, remembering routines is good the the brain!
After so many yrs. in the greater China area, with several high class teachers, I've got more forms than I ever really wanted, and I still do learn new stuff. also good for that old head of mine.
I had difficulties to really discard and kick out unnecessary forms (ZMQ 37, He style, comp. routines etc.), so it turned out that I have different "style days". As I train in 5 different systems (LOL), and mostly 6 days a week, I just switch them day by day. Works fine for me. (I do have Vids of most forms, also from myself for the one's not given by vid-shy masters. And I still attend classes in 2 of the 5 styles).

[leifeng]

I have a routine for reviewing all my forms including my weapon forms twice every week. Whenever I don't have enough time to do that I just practice them in my mind on the subway. I don't practice unnecessary forms anymore. If I need them for a competition I just have a look at the videos and notes I have made before.

[Franklin]

there is definitely a memory component to learning and remembering various forms
but whats the point of learning or practicing a form-- to develop the gong fu
so to me personally its not necessary to practice everything everyday
because you can practice the gong fu in any form... that's the most important anyways
then you can have the gong fu in anything that you do

but having a commitment to pass on different arts
it can be hard to practice everything..
personally I have my own training goals that I am working on- that determines the bulk of my practice
then i review the ones that I have not been going through that much-- so that they don't fade completely from my mind

i find that my training goes in cycles
for some years -- i will be working on some arts-- because the gong fu of that art is my focus
but then after a while my focus will switch so that I can continue to develop- and my practice will migrate to some of the methods that train in more overt ways the type of gong fu that I want to emphasize

I also found that it is good to have a video reference of the things you have learned
because even if you don't consciously change your practice over time
you are human and influenced by your memory and experiences
its interesting to go back to look at something through video -- how you learned it originally
and compare that to what your practice has developed into after 5/10/15/20+ years...

i think the video reference is also important because then you can be more clear with your students about the art that you are passing down--
what you learned -- and then what your personal discoveries were...


franklin

[wayne hansen]

Any form forgotten was either a less than perfect form,not properly practiced or learned.
Having said that if you don't practice a form each day why keep it

[Graculus]

Although there are things to be learnt from different forms, they can also contradict one another, sometimes to the extent of harming development. When that happens, I let those forms go. I used to pride myself on remembering forms, but I found that they weren't helping me develop in the direction I wanted. I was also told by the teacher who had taught me them that now was the time to concentrate on other things, and so I did. I don't think I would have done so of my own volition as I felt rather attached to them…but I'm glad i don't feel the need to hang onto them for 'old time's sake'. I actively practice one empty hand and one group of short weapons forms, which is quite enough to keep me busy.

Having said that, I do have those older forms recorded, either on paper or video, so I suppose I could resurrect them if I ever had the need to do so. My experience has been that the forms are vehicles for technique, and if you understand the technique, the forms are not necessary. If my active practice of just a few forms suggests to you that I haven't 'got' the techniques to my satisfaction, you'd be right.

Graculus
http://www.ichijoji.blogspot.com

[yeniseri]

there is definitely a memory component to learning and remembering various forms
but whats the point of learning or practicing a form...............
but having a commitment to pass on different arts
it can be hard to practice everything....................
franklin

but that's just it! The yangsheng daoyin purposeful component is beneficial for the obvious and no so obvious mental memory components of 'brain stimulation' and activity (function and movement) and neuronal plasticity. One does not have to do 'everything' but keep the essential per the age decade, activity level, physical conditioning and enjoy the scenery. Just saying that the yangsheng component in principle/concept is distinct from the martial element of passing on an art. As they say 'jus' do it'!

There are time where I have forgotten parts of many forms that I know but interestingly I add my own points that fit in perfectly with the forgotten elements.

[Bill]

Back in the 70's before video cameras were common I used to map out my forms with stick figures.
I recently realized that I had neglected '12 red hammers' for a few years and found my stick figure notes and was able to reconstruct it without a problem.

[Bao]

Practice the individual movements as drills. Then it's easier to remember the form. If you don't remember,the form exactly, you still have the movements. I would suggest though to just throw away the forms you don't need and focus on one or two forms. You can still keep individual movements as drills if you like them. IMHO, it's a waste of time and energy to remember forms just to collect them.

[wayne hansen]

Practicing forms and collecting them are two very different things
I only ever learnt forms to be exposed to teachers
I practice them to respect those teachers and lines they pass through
I find those who practice forms on an irregular basis remember them in an irregular manner
When you learn forms from a good teacher there is a lamination of understanding that one aquires
If you just want to remember techniques they can be picked up from books or YouTube
That is a whole different matter

[johnwang]

so how do you do it? Or do you just let them disappear from the gray matter?

Record all your forms on video and store it away.

[dspyrido]

I've forgotten most of the chained forms.

My "forms" are really simple. I wont forget them as they are at root clever body weight excercises which can augmented with weight.

Getting movement right, at speed, at controlled muscular compression, continuously moving, with agility, engaging the bows, connecting the body, being aware of many potential application variations etc etc. More challenges than I can cope with.

[edededed]

There are certainly many sets that I forgot already - some on purpose (like contemporary wushu sets), others just naturally (although strangely the first section or so usually remains intact ). Routines are not the most important thing to practice, but I do feel some sentimental sadness when I do forget one!

I guess the main approaches to retention are:
- Periodic review
- Notes (this is my main way)
- Drawing pictures
- Taking videos

I am most worried about weapon sets, perhaps - each set is quite unique (seven star rod, two-headed spear, etc.), but they are also hard to run through without the weapon in your hands... (Xingyi sets are usually quite easy to record on paper - since they tend to be a mix of pi, zuan, beng, etc. )

[chenyaolong]

I have a couple of forms which I practice almost daily, either as a whole, or taken apart and drilling single techniques/combos. Then I will try to pick a few other forms to review maybe once a month. I also have everything on video, so some stuff I dont practice at all, but its there if one day I decide I want it.

[klonk]

I find myself siding with those who say write it down or video it, or if there is an authoritative manual on the form buy it--and then let the form go. You are not using it for a reason. It may be a good reason or not, but as matters stand you are not benefiting from information that has somehow become extraneous to what you do these days.

Lurking underneath that thought is the idea that the art is made to serve the man. The man is not made to serve the art. You can lose track of that if a sense of duty becomes involved--duty to teachers or a tradition or school. I do not feel any duty toward remembering forms because it is not my responsibility at this time to show or teach them to anybody.