Push hands ... legs .. elbows ...body?

[dspyrido]

I like the sticking excercises. They are theraputic, teach awareness, angles, structure and other nice things.

But I wonder - why are so many of the ph, roushou, sticking only taught at a single height and tend to be hands only? Even wc which has a leg version but it tends not to be taught.

What are the origins of ph? Do they derive from weapons practise that along the way got left behind as weapons got banned (or dropped)?

There are different versions - perhaps some good examples of different body parts in use?

[johnwang]

Not "biting" your leading leg into your opponent's leading leg in both Taiji PH and WC sticky hands makes no sense to me.

[Finny]

I agree - my favourite memory from my WC days involved the use of chi gerk during chi sao, although my teacher called the more intensive chi sao we were doing 'gor sao'.. I'm 6'4, was mid twenties, strong and probably around 210lbs at tne time, he was the proverbial skinny little Chinese dude (maybe 5'2), and of course I would never get near him in chi sao. Except for once, when I extended him and had him side on, arm across my chest - I thought finally, I can get him! Haha intending to do what we call in aussie rules football a "hip n shoulder" - basically just using the whole side of the body as a battering ram.. The moment I chambered my weight to do so, he's hooked a foot behind my leading knee, spun me with it, then shoved me in the back sending me sprawling across the shiny wooden floor. Was great

edit - similar but slightly different to what JW posted - no doubt that's one approach, but it seems to limit mobility somewhat

[Bao]

But I wonder - why are so many of the ph, roushou, sticking only taught at a single height and tend to be hands only? Even wc which has a leg version but it tends not to be taught.

In PH, you can use any of the Seven stars and you can practice at any height you want.

What are the origins of ph? Do they derive from weapons practise...

In chinese weaponry, you teach to "tie", stick with the weapons, so maybe there's some kind of relation.... There's quite similar drills with spear and sword. But the exercises probably have a Shaolin background. You can see variations similar to PH drills even in southern external styles as Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut.

[leifeng]

@ds: Are you talking about basic stationary PH?

[dspyrido]

@ds: Are you talking about basic stationary PH?

Not just stationary but that most sticking drills tend to be the same height and wrist, maybe to forearm or elbow oriented.

In PH, you can use any of the Seven stars and you can practice at any height you want.

Yes that is true but how often is this taught as a drill? Or even trained? My guess - 95% of people doing sticking are at the same height and hand/wrist maybe forearm/elbow oriented.

In some flavours we get leg on leg (as mentioned above chi gerk in wc, leg hooks in rou shou) but it does not seem to be a common practise.

I've seen some routines add a shoulder strike in the pattern but I cannot recall routines where the hand, elbows is placed on the leg or hip to hip. This training seems to switch and be classed as chinna or wrestling.

So why no drills to teach hip to hip or hand to leg (and so on)?

[johnwang]

I've seen some routines add a shoulder strike in the pattern but I cannot recall routines where the hand, elbows is placed on the leg or hip to hip. This training seems to switch and be classed as chinna or wrestling.

I have judged Taiji PH tournaments many times lately (After so many years, I have finally been promoted from an external judge into an "internal" judge). As far as I can remember, I haven't seen "shoulder strike" ever used in Taiji PH tournament.

When you have right leg forward, if you use your left hand to guide your opponent's right arm up, use your right hand to guide his left arm down, a right "shoulder strike" can be very effective.

Also if you are allowed to use your hand to pull your opponent's arm, why aren't you allow to use your hand to pull your opponent's leg?

[leifeng]

It's not a secret that 95% of the taiji taught is rubbish and most instructors have no idea what they are teaching. The purpose of the moving step PH is to incorporate the leg techniques.

[charles]

This video shows some of the basic push "hands" curriculum Feng taught. It includes a variety of body parts and actions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8XtEip ... ecvfcEdqy5

[windwalker]

the hand is the body, the body is the hand.
with out the correct touch its hard for most to really understand this.

In china, oops maybe I shouldn't say this. In china with the group I work with
the contact point is very important once a certain level is reached.

there's not much time to change height, or attempt to move in
the movement is quite small and very quick




not another push the line demo yep

if its a trick as many suggest why is it that many use it to demo with,
what is it that the demo is supposed to show?

[wingchun]

the hand is the body, the body is the hand.
with out the correct touch its hard for most to really understand this.

In china with the group I work with the contact point is very important once a certain level is reached.

there's not much time to change height, or attempt to move in
the movement is quite small and very quick

Hey windwalker,
is the gentleman demoing in the clip your teacher?

Can you explain the internal mechanics of what's going on in the clip?

is the bio-mechanics the same as allowing the plumb bob to swing ahead of the body, move the body after it reaches the apex of the swing while touching the other person?

[johnwang]

If your opponent grabs on your arm (like Lu), when you push, since his arms and your arm are connected, you cannot push him away.



If a "full clinch" is established (as shown in the following clip), to "push" your opponent away is almost impossible.



In the following "push" clip, how to deal with Taiji Lu and clinch are not addressed. This make the following clip as "微观(Wei Guan) - micro view" only.

[windwalker]

Hey windwalker,
is the gentleman demoing in the clip your teacher?

Can you explain the internal mechanics of what's going on in the clip?

is the bio-mechanics the same as allowing the plumb bob to swing ahead of the body, move the body after it reaches the apex of the swing while touching the other person?

my teacher is

taiji master zhang youngliang

if your interested I can explain it in gen terms
from what I have read from dglenn, he probbly could explain it in much more detail.



the plumb bob can be used to show where ones center is relative to themselves a good way among a couple of different ways of looking at it.

this teacher uses one to help with with his explanations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtNcBci3eeI

if the thread turns int its fake, complaint students, it never worked on me
ect. not interested in defending, justifying or anything, it is what it is.

almost all the taiji teachers I interact with and others I know follow what is shown.
its the practice nothing more.

[wingchun]

if your interested I can explain it in gen terms

Sure, it would be great if both you and dglenn can give your take on the internal bio-mechanics involved of what's going on in the clip?

this teacher uses one to help with with his explanations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtNcBci3eeI

unfortunately i don't understand a word he is saying because it's all in Russian

windwalker, dglenn here are 2 additional clips with the same type fa jin, what's the process or internal bio-mechanics involved to issue force in this manner?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgjOsa2Hpxs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUsLvJINo-E

[dspyrido]

This video shows some of the basic push "hands" curriculum Feng taught. It includes a variety of body parts and actions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8XtEip ... ecvfcEdqy5

I like the vid but even though the body parts are used more expressively if you watch the students they stick to the same formula of arm play and sometimes add knee/shin play.

The routine at 14:40 is an example of the shoulder stroke method I mentioned above. This is an example of one of the moves we practise that leads into 18:13 which is a circling routine to shoulder strike. The only difference is we also do it at varying heights and add a conditioning element.

But in the whole video most routines are the same height and even when Feng is showing his extra variations they tend to be arm on arm with some shin or shin. Again it's 95% in this category except for "finishes". Not once does he touch his hand to the leg or hands to the hips. Even the leg behind the other leg is rarely seen.