Push hands ... legs .. elbows ...body?

[windwalker]

Ph is used to gain understand, develop and practice the correct feeling.
once gained what ever else is done is the same, in that the feeling is there and used regardless of setting or movement.

"the whole body is the hand"



not an easy thing to get, understand or practice. its the work of many yrs.
It is interesting that many of the exercises can be found across different disciplines showing or explaining the same things.

they tend to look the same IMO.

[Steve James]

A. We do the san-shou in three ways. The first way is to learn the movements of attack and defense. The second way is to do these movements faster and with much more power, this is where we get some bruises. The third way is when we try to strike each other for real and try to get each other off balance by doing the movements in the wrong sequence

This. However , not everyone wants to get brutal or can afford to have broken limbs or bruises. Well, that's why it was important to learn Defense first, which imo was the more important aspect of "push hands." As John W says, "push, meh."

[johnwang]

A. We do the san-shou in three ways. The first way is to learn the movements of attack and defense. The second way is to do these movements faster and with much more power, this is where we get some bruises. The third way is when we try to strike each other for real and try to get each other off balance by doing the movements in the wrong sequence

This. However , not everyone wants to get brutal or can afford to have broken limbs or bruises. Well, that's why it was important to learn Defense first, which imo was the more important aspect of "push hands." As John W says, "push, meh."

IMO, to jump from PH to Sanshou is too fast. PH is skill developing and Sanshou is skill testing. You will need another level of skill developing in between for those skills that you have not yet developed through PH (such as "foot sweep", "elbow strike", ...).

In

- skill developing, your opponent will help you.
- skill testing, your opponent will be against you.

You can't develop any new skill during the skill testing stage. You won't get any "broken limbs or bruises" during skill developing since your opponent is "helping" you to develop certain skill.

The main issue is whether you have the "desire" to develop such skills (such as "foot sweep", "elbow strike", ...) or not. In IMA forum, most people may treat those skills as "low level". So the issue is not people can't develop those skills. People just don't want to develop those skills.

[johnwang]

Many discussions in the forum is not whether something may be missing or not (such as ... legs .. elbows ...body). It's just "people don't care much about it" or "not consider it as any high priority in their training".

[Steve James]

I don't think that the jump is from phs to sanshou, btw. But, I think developing skill is the same as skill testing. Testing is how one develops. I think the progression must start with something that the partners can handle and then work up in speed and intensity.

[johnwang]

I think developing skill is the same as skill testing.

You cannot "develop" your hip throw through wrestling. You have to use hip throw partner drill to throw your training partner 10,000 times. You can then "test" your hip throw in wrestling.

If you have never "developed" foot sweep in PH, no matter how many times that you may spar, you will never be able to pull out your foot sweep in "testing".

[Steve James]

You have to use hip throw partner drill to throw your training partner 10,000 times.

Well, when it comes to defense, either it works or it doesn't. When one is learning, one is also testing whether what one has learned works. I agree 100% with drills. But, doing phs back and forth for 10,000 times is not the same as drilling a hip throw. Even if it were, the whole point of the drill is to do it so that it works. Maybe it's just semantics, but that means testing to me. Ok, if you want to say that competition is testing and that doing phs or drills is not, fine.

[dspyrido]

I see PHs as a sensitivity exercise to learn strengths & weaknesses of human anatomy. It also is a way to teach timing and flow in order to get setups. It teaches offence and defense in a cycle that repeats over and over. Once the general move is learnt then it can be expanded with more and more drills. It's a nice way to get to feel the gaps.

I see two man technique drills as teaching a frame of action-reaction. Many schools teach a single move to get it right ie a hip throw or a striking sequence or kick-block. Some then add them together to write a story such as - attacker throws two punches, defender covers, drops and does a double leg, attacker responds by placing hands on head and halting momentum and then drives knee to face etc. Action-reaction but timing and sensitivity are less alive and less continuous here.

And then we get sparring/san sou. We can throw people from ph to san shou but they are going to be in trouble without some middle ground.

The thing I'm wondering is - where is the expanded list of PH like sensitivity drills that go beyond just the limb orientation to consider other parts of the body. For example there are some sensitivity cycling sequences where:

- one person reaches and grabs the neck and the other flows around it and then the defender reaches for the neck & things repeat
- one person drops down and tries to grab around the waist and the defender sweeps the hands out to the side and repeats swapping the roles

These are a few examples and I am sure there are a lot but it's just a question of filtering through the 95% of videos being wrist on wrist and palm on elbow to go find the ones that are the advances beyond the basic ones.

NOTE: by no means am I saying swapping sensitivity practices for technique drills or sparring. All are a necessity.

[johnwang]

Many people are quite satisfied to stop at the "push" level.



Few are not and try to go beyond.

[Trip]

The 2 basic, beginning push Hands exercises, practice all 8 fundamental movements.

The first drill practices the primary movements: Ward-off, Rollback, Press & Push.
The second practices the secondary movements: Pull Down, Split, Elbow & Shoulder.

Just because you may not see it in a single still picture or most YouTube videos does not mean it is not part of the most basic of Push Hands practices.

It’s true that when you see most Taiji people spar or fight on these Youtube videos, (if they survive at all) they usually don’t go beyond a crude rollback and a half-assed press/push.

However, if you saw a boxing match where a boxer never threw a jab or a hook or cross or an uppercut, whose fault is that?

Or, when they did throw the cross or uppercut and it wasn't effective, where does the fault really lie?

I'm not even going to ask about strategy or ring generalship.

[I-mon]

Should be lots of drills like these around - John Wang I'd love to see your video playlist of leg biting and wrapping moves.

[I-mon]

I like to play push hands with this sort of stuff:

[Trip]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzdEfHSjFEI

[leifeng]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzdEfHSjFEI

I have trained similar stuff with my Chen teacher so it just doesn't make sense to me when people say taiji PH doesn't train this or that.

[dspyrido]

Perhaps XYZ has already been defined, at least in the Yang Shao-Hou curriculum/lineage:

In an interview from China Wushu Magazine (http://goldeneaglemac.com/?p=62) from the mid seventies with Chang Yiu-Chun a student of Yang Shao-Hou (from 1911 until Yang’s death in 1930;

Really enjoyed this interview. Some great commentary with a lot of intrigue & controversy. Not sure if it's all accurate or not but still thought provoking.