Internal Martial Arts Explained

[RickMatz]

A new article by Jonathan Bluestein.

[shawnsegler]

Well, now that it's been explained we can be done with this silly website.

Thanks for helping out.

[Bao]

"Yi should be, in my opinion, the first measure for putting an ‘Internal’ martial arts teacher to the test. A person who defines himself as such should be aware of the term, or at the least be able to feel it and understand how it impacts his or her training. Yi is the cornerstone of all theory in the Internally-oriented arts. Without it, one cannot call his practice "Internal", as he or she will not possess a truly "internal" structure, and be lacking of a key element required for training such a structure. "

I very much disagree. Yi has absolutely nothing to do with "internal vs external". All chinese arts depend on trained use of yi, regardless we are speaking about martial arts or fine arts.

In fact, "yi" is very much a fashion word, developing into a fashion in the last 15 years. Now everybody speak about "yi", but if you look at older books or the classical books by the masters, yi is seldom mentioned. Read the Students of YCF or texts by Sun Lutang and you will hardly ever see "yi" in the texts. Rather they use "mind", xin and explain IMA in very different ways. And the characteristics of tai chi is explained rather by words like emptiness, calmness, stillness, song.

Not even Sun Lu Tang made differentiations between internal and external arts, as everyone believe. For him, it was just a name, collecting a few arts with another geographical history. The internal parts of the boxing practice was important, not what style you practice.
From Sun Lu Tang:
" Song said: “Breathing is divided into internal and external, but in boxing arts there’s no distinction between internal and external. If you are good at nurturing energy, then it’s internal. If you’re not good at nurturing energy, then it’s external. Consider the phrase [Mengzi, chapter 2a] “good at nurturing one’s noble energy”. Surely it reveals the deeper meaning of the internal school. When practicing boxing arts, seek stillness through movement. In meditation arts, seek movement through stillness. " https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... un-lutang/

Can you find even one single of the translated classical texts here that define IMA with the word "intent"? Or even puts the concept as the most important one? https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com
.... I haven't.

[D_Glenn]

...Can you find even one single of the translated classical texts here that define IMA with the word "intent"? Or even puts the concept as the most important one? https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com
.... I haven't.

Took me all of 5 minutes: https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -dianchen/

PART ONE:
總論
“THE WHOLE”

總論者形意各項技術之總根柢也夫戰爭之道往往以白刃相加隻手抗敵為最後之勝利則武技一門實行軍之命脈也然武技種類甚多門分派别各是其是要言之大槪分內外兩派外派之長不過練習腰腿靈活捉拿抅打封閉閃展騰挪跳躍諸法以遇敵制勝而其弊則在於虛招太多徒炫人耳目不切於實用惟內家拳法純本於先天按陰陽五行六合七疾八要諸法以成其技此則總根柢不能不先為培植也夫人非氣血不生氣血充足則精神健旺若先天氣虧後天卽須補救補之之道要在充其氣養其血但培養氣血必先聚氣於丹田使丹田氣足然後內達於五臟外發於四肢再加以練習之功血脈貫通筋骨堅壯內外如一手脚相合動靜有常進退有法手不虛發發則必勝心不妄動動則必應正所謂晬然見於面盎於背施於四肢隨意所適得心應手以成百戰百勝之技者也以下將各項總要之事分别言之
Here we shall explain the fundamentals of the various skills of the art of Xingyi.
In warfare, typically blades are used, but empty-handed fighting is a last resort, and for that reason the practice of such martial skills is the lifeblood of the military. There is a great variety of martial skills, schools dividing into more schools, each with its set of essentials to discuss, but generally they divide into the two branches of internal and external.
The external branch’s strong points are nothing more than flexibility training, grabbing and striking, blocking and dodging, jumping and leaping. If they do get the upper hand in a fight, their vice is a vacuous temptation to then overdo it, and so its followers are show-offs and it has nothing to do with reality. However, the methods of internal styles of boxing are purely based on what is innate.
This art is a matter of the passive and active aspects, the five elements, the six unions, the seven quicknesses, the eight requirements – these are the methods which make up its skills. These therefore are the foundation of all of it, and so you have to cultivate them first.
If a person has no energy or blood, there is no life, but when the energy and blood are abundant, the spirit flourishes. If the innate energy is lacking, then the acquired energy must assist it. The method of assisting should lie in filling the energy and nourishing the blood. But to develop the energy and blood, you must first gather the energy in the elixir field. Once energy fills the elixir field, it then internally reaches to the five organs and externally expresses in the four limbs, further enhancing the practiced skill.
When the blood has good circulation, the physique will be strong. When inside and outside are as one, the hands and feet will unite with each other. When movement and stillness have a consistency, advancing and retreating will have a method. If the hands do not emptily express, then when they express they will surely win. If the mind does not move rashly, then when there is movement it will surely be the right movement. It is just as it is said [in Mengzi, chapter 7a, section 21] that [being filled with virtuous qualities] “clears the gaze, poises the back, and carries the limbs.” Following the intention to the right place, act with your hands according to what is in your mind, and you will have achieved the ability of “in a hundred battles having a hundred victories”.
Below, each of these essentials will be discussed individually.

Intention highlighted in red.

Yi also shows up in the rest of the text, a whole chapter is dedicated to it.

(I also underlined the part where after one fills up the lower dantian then it overflows into the five organs, and then into the four limbs, making the whole body essentially like a Dantian.)

.

[Bao]

Took me all of 5 minutes: https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -dianchen/

Where in that quote does it say that IMA is defined with the word "intent"? Or puts the concept as the most important one?

The question was not about dantian. The topic was not Dantian, it was yi. Maybe you meant to post something in this thread? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23227

[jonathan.bluestein]

In fact, "yi" is very much a fashion word, developing into a fashion in the last 15 years. Now everybody speak about "yi", but if you look at older books or the classical books by the masters, yi is seldom mentioned. Read the Students of YCF or texts by Sun Lutang and you will hardly ever see "yi" in the texts. Rather they use "mind", xin and explain IMA in very different ways. And the characteristics of tai chi is explained rather by words like emptiness, calmness, stillness, song.

Sure, a 'new' thing. So new it's in the name of Xin Yi Liu He Quan, Xing Yi Quan, Yi Quan, etc. Actually, usage of the term in the practice of martial arts goes back at least several hundred years (not just in these three arts), and in Daoist methods - possibly thousands of years.

Why is it not explained in books? Exactly because it's the most important component. I have explained this in the article and the rest of my book. It is not that Yi is the only thing that makes 'Internal mechanics' work. Far from it. Countless others things elements operate simultaneously, and they are all explained in the book. However, without knowing the correct usage of Yi for each movement and practice, they will be no development of proper bodily structure as sought after in a given art.

Not even Sun Lu Tang made differentiations between internal and external arts

My differentiation is not the same as his. This is also thoroughly explained in the book.

Can you find even one single of the translated classical texts here that define IMA with the word "intent"?

Oh yes! Here is one:

Study of Xing Yi Quan
形意拳學

By that guy, you know... Sun Lutang Indeed, Yi is not that important... It's just the second character in the title of the book.

That is making my point, by the way. This is what people do not understand. The art is called 'The First of Form (Xing) and Intention (Yi) exactly because Xing and Yi are its core component, inseparable from each other. Both beg equal care and emphasis. However, many do not understand Yi and how it is trained, which is partly the reason I have written the chapter about it in my book that is the article above.

Historically, the creation of Yi Quan (Da Cheng Quan) by Wang Xiangzhai was partly a reaction of his to what he thought was people's misunderstanding of the training of Yi, and his disappointment that his Xing Yi students focused too much on the Xing. He considered the training of Yi to be the 'higher level' of practice, and therefore based its entire art on Yi training methods.

Sun Lutang by the way was in at least some agreement with this. Here is an excerpt from his article 'Things I Was Told About the Marial Arts' (a part which is also referenced in the article):

余曰: 拳劍之理。大别有三。其一。上下相連。手足相顧。內外如一。其二。不卽不離。不丢不頂。勿忘勿助。其三。拳無拳。意無意。無意之中。是真意也。

I said: “The principles of boxing arts and sword arts roughly amount to three:
“1. Above and below coordinate with each other. Hands and feet look after each other. Inside and outside are as one.
“2. Neither reaching nor separating, neither coming away nor crashing in, neither under-involved nor over-involved.
“3. The boxing is without boxing. The intention is without intention. Within no intention is true intention.”

The third point master Sun makes explains refers to the three levels of grasping a skill: First, learning it. Second, practicing it. Third, you and it becoming the same thing, so it happens without conscious thought or effort. This idea is also found in Buddhism, wherein it's discussed with various metaphors. Among them:

- "...I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers".

- A man that comes into the world with the mind of a baby, becomes an adult, then exists with a mature mind that regains the essence of a newborn.

Indeed, master Sun's friend recognizes that Sun's observation is found in Buddhism, and comments on his third point by saying: "Being without boxing and without intention – this is the ‘non-identity’ of the Buddhists".

_____________________

To conclude:

- Yi is nothing new.

- The training of Yi is essential for the practice of the Internally-oriented martial arts.

- Yi is sometimes called other names when taught, the name is not exclusive and neither are the method of training it.

- Those who have not been taught how to train their Yi (as explained in the article) tend to dismiss this concept because they are not familiar with it.

- In my teachings and those I have received in both Xing Yi Quan and Jook Lum Southern Mantis, without the training of Yi the art would be useless. This statement I have found true in the teachings of all highly regarded martial artists I have come across, among them teachers Chen Zhonghua, Yang Hai, Strider Clark, James Cama (RIP) and Neil Ripsky whom I have interviewed for my book. They all spoke of it (in their interviews, too), and from some of them I have received such teachings personally.

[Bhassler]

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for sharing. You make a case for the importance of intent in internal arts, but I didn't see where it was contrasted with how intent is used in external arts. Did I miss it in the blog?

Thanks,
B-

[D_Glenn]

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/the-xingyi-manual-of-liu-dianchen/

Where in that quote does it say that IMA is defined with the word "intent"? Or puts the concept as the most important one?

四肢隨意所適得心應手以成百戰百勝之技者也 Following the intention to the right place, act with your hands according to what is in your mind, and you will have achieved the ability of “in a hundred battles having a hundred victories”.

If you use Intention, then you will have a hundred victories in a hundred battles-- seems pretty important to me.

I didn't read J.B's article so I'm not arguing his point. I'm only replying to your comment that: "In fact, "yi" is very much a fashion word, developing into a fashion in the last 15 years. Now everybody speak about "yi", but if you look at older books or the classical books by the masters, yi is seldom mentioned." (For the record I think IMA is defined by doing practices that promote the cultivation of surplus qi, which then leads to the increased capabilities of using one's 'Yi'.)

The whole rest of that book (https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/the-xingyi-manual-of-liu-dianchen/) goes into that more, and 'Yi' is mentioned many, many times throughout the rest of it.

.

[D_Glenn]

Took me all of 5 minutes: https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -dianchen/

The question was not about dantian. The topic was not Dantian, it was yi. Maybe you meant to post something in this thread? http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23227

I know the question was not about dantian. I just wanted to note that the text supported my view on different topic we had discussed: http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php? ... b1#p378885

.

[GrahamB]

What is internal ?

[jonathan.bluestein]

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for sharing. You make a case for the importance of intent in internal arts, but I didn't see where it was contrasted with how intent is used in external arts. Did I miss it in the blog?

Thanks,
B-

The book does not comply with traditional notions of 'Internal' and 'External'. Instead of tagging an art as being this or that, I have dedicated large portions of the book to discussing 'External methods of training' and 'Internal methods of training' separately. Then, it comes down to classifying a style as being 'Externally-oriented', 'Internally-oriented', or a 'Combination style' (somewhere in between) based on the ratio of External vs. Internal methods trained in that art. Therefore, an art is more 'external' or more 'internal' based on how it's taught and practiced under a specific teacher, according to the methods used, and is not by default this or that. I have also explained in the book that there is rarely a style that's purely 'external' or 'internal', as almost all martial arts involve the training of both types of methods, with a different emphasis between them. Thus, there is no contradiction - you can even do Muay Thai and train Zhan Zhuang and work on your Yi. It's simply less common.

The book just makes its simpler to draw such distinctions:

- There is a long list of external and internal training methods.

- Most methods are explained in general terms and often in great detail.

- An art is inclined to be more 'Internally-oriented' or 'Externally-oriented' based on how many methods of type A it has compared to how many methods of type B.

That's it. Pretty simple and straightforward. I included many tables and summaries for this sort of information to make it even easier for reader to comprehend what I am talking about. The book is also quite heavy on images and art.

[somatai]

Trying to explain away the mystery as if one "understands" is wrong thinking. I am constantly trying to figure out what it is I am doing and just what this process is. In some ways it is very simple and clear,in other ways it is a total mystery. In my opinion we need to allow for that,it can be both.

[Bhassler]

Thanks, Jonathan, that clarifies nicely.

Trying to explain away the mystery as if one "understands" is wrong thinking. I am constantly trying to figure out what it is I am doing and just what this process is. In some ways it is very simple and clear,in other ways it is a total mystery. In my opinion we need to allow for that,it can be both.

I agree, and I also recognize there can be great benefit in attemtpint the articulation.

I think at this point many people realize that these arts don't exist outside the individual practitioners. There is no "Taiji" sitting somewhere as an artifact that one can look at for a definitive example of what taiji is or is not (but if there was, it would be sitting on Plato's chair). The best we have are traditions that provide a model of how things "should" be, and one can compare one's own tradition to that of the broader community and decide if it fits in or not. I think once someone recognizes that, it becomes much less important to agree on things, and more just an interesting discussion about different points of view. I can be a bit of a douche about poorly constructed theories or arguments, but that's just my OCD talking, and not really anything to do with MA.

[D_Glenn]

I very much disagree. Yi has absolutely nothing to do with "internal vs external". All chinese arts depend on trained use of yi, regardless we are speaking about martial arts or fine arts.

Thanks for sharing. You make a case for the importance of intent in internal arts, but I didn't see where it was contrasted with how intent is used in external arts. Did I miss it in the blog?

Jing --> Qi --> Shen

'Yi' (Intent) is an aspect of Shen.

So external martial artists, who don't worry about Cultivation practices, use their 'Yi' but it's like striking a match, you light one match and you get the flame (Yi), then you put it/ snuff it out. An untrained person just has a metaphorical book of paper matches, where trained external martial artists, build their's up to where their 'Yi' is like a strong wooden, strike-anywhere, matchstick. They also can learn to light them in quick succession.

Internal martial artists build up {Jing --> Qi --> Shen}, so that their 'Yi' is like a propane torch, strike it once and then the intensity of the flame can be turned up (full) or down (empty) with the rotation of a knob. The knob and control of the propane torch has many increments of full to empty. But not completely Empty, as the knob can be turned down to where the flame is clear, just a hint of blue (1%).

Where the Matchstick only has Full (100%) to Empty (0%).

.

[Bhassler]

I very much disagree. Yi has absolutely nothing to do with "internal vs external". All chinese arts depend on trained use of yi, regardless we are speaking about martial arts or fine arts.

Thanks for sharing. You make a case for the importance of intent in internal arts, but I didn't see where it was contrasted with how intent is used in external arts. Did I miss it in the blog?

Jing --> Qi --> Shen

'Yi' (Intent) is an aspect of Shen.

So external martial artists, who don't worry about Cultivation practices, use their 'Yi' but it's like striking a match, you light one match and you get the flame (Yi), then you put it/ snuff it out. An untrained person just has a metaphorical book of paper matches, where trained external martial artists, build their's up to where their 'Yi' is like a strong wooden, strike-anywhere, matchstick. They also can learn to light them in quick succession.

Internal martial artists build up {Jing --> Qi --> Shen}, so that their 'Yi' is like a propane torch, strike it once and then the intensity of the flame can be turned up (full) or down (empty) with the rotation of a knob. The knob and control of the propane torch has many increments of full to empty. But not completely Empty, as the knob can be turned down to where the flame is clear, just a hint of blue (1%).

Where the Matchstick only has Full (100%) to Empty (0%).

.

I disagree with your characterization of Yi as it relates to external martial arts, both in general and as it relates specifically to movement. Your metaphor of intent as a propane torch could be applied to all sorts of disciplines, and there's nothing about that sort of usage that's unique to IMA, in my experience.