Where are the Chinese fighters?

[windwalker]

not a big fan of mma, have a friend who follows it, and also works with others who enter into the comps
introducing them to taiji concepts and ideas that might help them with their work.

[cloudz]

As with most things, it'll probably just be a matter of time. China was closed off for so many years and is such a huge place, this kind of thing will take years to get a real foothold, never mind flourish, over and above their own thing eg. Sanda. Japan and Korea are hardly the same.

How about Thailand as an example. Does anyone think MMA could or even should overtake Muay Thai in popularity over there ?
I don't think either Sanda or MT are any less entertaining or full filing as disciplines than MMA.

[cloudz]

You're calling me a racist?

Ok, I'm just going to assume you're crazy at this point and stay away from you.

Look, you brought up football. Here's the thing: the English invented football. Since 1966 we haven't been near a world cup final. Nobody here says "Ssshhh you can't talk about that" In short, we're just not very good at football anymore and other countries are better. There are lots of reasons for that. - we debate it all the time, we talk about it, we don't try to sweep it under the carpet. Nobody calls anybody a racist for pointing it out.

As the original article says, the Chinese invented or heavily influenced most of the martial arts in Japan and Korea, and yet, those countries regularly produce MMA fighters, but China doesn't. Why is that? It then gives a number of cultural, social and political reasons. That's it. All the rest of this thread is ego. Nobody is saying that if China can't produce an MMA fighter your whole life is meaningless, or you're not a real man or something. Suck it up!

Yeah, we suck at football, just like China sucks at MMA.

China didn't invent MMA or Martial arts, so it's a bit of a shit analogy anyway. Japan and Korea don't really have something of their own by way of sport combat format in the cultural sense like for example Thailand and China do.

[GrahamB]

George, I think you could pick an argument with your own reflection.

[cloudz]

Not 'arguing' Graham as there seems nothing to really argue about, can I not just take part in sharing my opinion. If that feels like I'm poking you with a stick, that's a bonus.

I don't really care to slate the article, it didn't offend me. Doesn't mean it is beyond some level of critique or discussion. People put stuff out there, others talk about it, and have an opinion.

[bailewen]

Hey Graham, what do you call a black man who flies a plane....










































A pilot...you fucking racist!

[Spncr]

Isn't the word "race" just a social construct that is itself inherently "rasist"?

See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(h ... sification)

I think a lot of you guys mean to say "ethnicity" (or should be saying), which to my understanding is a far less racist term.

Taxonomically, all humans are part of the same species and sub species, right? I was under the impression that there were quite a few highly educated members on this board, so honestly I'm suprised that "race" is being used in such a way on this forum without this having been pointed out yet.

[Andy_S]

I can't see why suggesting that "Chinese have not made major strides in international MMA" (which seems to be more on-point than the OP) is racist.

There again, few nations have: Big picture, the only countries producing multiple world-class fighters are Brazil, Japan, Russia, USA and that is about it.

Sure, there are a handful of star fighters like McGregor from other countries - but McGregor's success does not mean that Ireland is suddenly an MMA powerhouse: He is just one chap.

What may be more germane is this. There are more CMAs than any other nation's martial art. (And this is not simply a result of there being more Chinese than any other people: China has, for whatever reason, churned out a hell of a lot of traditional fighting styles.) However, this huge plethora of MA have had no impact on, or influence upon, the burgeoning international sport of MMA. Instead, MMA today is largely a combo of widely disseminated sports fighting formats (boxing and rassling) and only recently disseminated sport fighting formats (Thai boxing and BJJ). Sure, I know that "CMA are not meant for the ring" but given the vastness of CMA martial culture surely there is SOME crossover potential...?

Would be interested to hear what Taiji concepts, tactics or techniques Windwalker is teaching to MMA peeps that they find applicable...

[windwalker]

Would be interested to hear what Taiji concepts, tactics or techniques Windwalker is teaching to MMA peeps that they find applicable...

its not me, its a friend of mine who works with a person that is supposed to be quite active in the sport, not really much more I can say publicly about it.
for my self its not really interesting. But understand the interest that others have for it.

[dspyrido]

Don't see the racial aspect? Try reading these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
http://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2015/jul/08/how-can-we-fix-unconscious-racism

Don't care? Ah well that's fair enough. It's a nasty topic and we are here to discuss ima (well some of us are anyway ... others just seem to want to chime in with snide comments).

Anyway onto why a nation should embrace mma .... or not.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As I highlighted in my earlier post - this entire article is about "Chinese people" adopting mma and breaking away from their beloved traditions. Again - why should any race or nation do anything? If an individual wants to do mma then do it! There are guys competing from China in the sports as well. But this sort of comment about breaking away from beloved traditions is just outright sad. Why can't people do something that is traditional? Why can't they just do something that is cultural? Why should anyone abandon anything they like doing because someone else wants to egg them on?

But fuck me - mma is just mixed martial arts. The moment you step into 2+ training schools and adopt 2+ methods you are mixing your martial art. Mma is not ufc, bellator, M1 or the myriad of other sports combat associations. These are businesses that represent a flavour of sports rules classed as mma and not the be all and end all representation of the combat arts world. As I have pointed out the chinese have made some pretty major wins in the fields of boxing, wrestling and judo at the olympics level (apparently the government now endorses them). Pretty sure there are other places they have made a mark. They don't need to prove anything to validate or invalidate their "kung fu" (quotes for us ignorant westerners who misuse the term).

But one last thing to consider - this is from early 1928.



Looks like they knew about take downs a long time ago.

This is from 1949.



I've known a few martial artists from mainland china who had several stories on what happened to their instructors or friends of instructors during the communist rise to power which directly targeted martial artists (along with scholars, sympathisers etc.). The guys did not just say that martial arts were banned. They mentioned people where rounded up, disgraced, beaten, imprisoned, tortured and sometimes murdered.

So you guys who endorse the Chinese should do anything like wholeheartedly adopt mma - answer just one question (and preferably not in a smart arse fashion) - did you grow up in an environment where your own government systematically eradicated people you knew?


If I was living in China I would wait until the government sanctioned an appropriate mma sport body ... and then think twice about it.

[Andy_S]

RE: Dspyrido's pic
Sure, the now-famous Nanjing Guoshu Institute embraced MMA before we had the phrase:
Back in the '20s they were teaching western boxing (and all the training methods and equipment that went with it) alongside CMA. So they were in many ways more open-minded than some "traditionalists" today - and, indeed, more open-minded then some persons on this forum.

I'd add that even the hidebound, budo-infected Japanese of the early 20th century borrowed western bayonet fighting and - hey presto! - turned it into a "traditional" Japanese martial art, jukendo.

Right now in China:
With so many non-Chinese MA coming to China - TKD, judo, MMA, etc - bringing an element of competition to the MA scene and prompting at least SOME traditional masters to come out of the woodwork and teach the real shit rather than hiding it away;
With all the attention being paid to realistic sport combat (sanda, MMA, etc) and to seeing how TCMA actually works (as seen in the various CCTV series trying to showcase the usage rather than the forms of TCMA);
With all the modern training and protective gear now available;
And with these trends bolstered by mass comms, modern media and IT (DVDs, Youtube, etc);
...well.
Today has the potential to be a golden era for CMA.

SNIP
So you guys who endorse the Chinese should do anything like wholeheartedly adopt mma - answer just one question (and preferably not in a smart arse fashion) - did you grow up in an environment where your own government systematically eradicated people you knew?
SNIP

Irrelevant to the point being discussed.

We are not talking the Cultural Revolution in the '60s (when, incidentally, MMA as we now know it did not exist), we are talking today's China. Sanda (whicb, incidentally, started out in the western boxing and CMA faculties of Beijing Sports University) is not just widely taught across China, it is officially sanctioned as part of the wushu curriculum. MMA is also being picked up widely in China, as referenced by the above posts, and the government is not "eradicating" any practitioners.

Today's China is Dengist, not Maoist.

And with all the attention being paid to realistic sport combat - sanda, MMA - bolstered by the use of modern media and IT (DVDs, Youtube, etc) - I would say right now has the potential to be a new golden era for CMA.

[MaartenSFS]

The short answer is... in China!

Thank you for all the laughs that this thread has provided!

Literally no one gives a fuck about MMA here. I hope it stays that way and some CMA-oriented platforms arise.

[Steve James]

Well, Chinese isn't a race per se, but the way the question is posed does imply a set of cultural or ethnic expectations. For ex., why aren't there more White American baseball players in MLB? Why are there so many Hispanic players, but only one manager? ... Iow, why are we asking these questions? It comes down to our expectations. I don't think the argument "because the Chinese invented tcma, there should be more of them in mma." Why? The Brits invented the rules of boxing as we know them, but why don't the English dominate the sport? Maybe the simplest explanation is that "they" just do other things.

We can ask why mma (a la UFC) is not more popular in China, but we have to admit that --on the whole-- Chinese people practice their tmas a great deal more and a great deal longer than westerners practice mmas. It may be true that mma (or bjj) will become more popular in China some day. I dunno. But, I think that the millions of people practicing non-mma stuff will continue for a long time. I agree that, if the Chinese take up mma, they have a deep pool of potential talent from which they can draw.

Otoh, the business aspect is also important. Professional sports are often pathways out of poverty. If you want to know which pro sports will gain the most popularity, it's probably easiest to simply follow the money. I.e., can a person earn more with mma or with something else? Where's the money? It's true that the PRC could invest in the development of schools to teach mma, but I'm not sure why they would do so.

[chenyaolong]

MMA is cool, and I think it would be great if more people in China start competing in UFC and other events.

However, I think as CMAists we should get rid of this attitude that MMA is where the bar is set as a standard we should seek to be like. All martial arts have their "niche" if you like, and just because one doesnt measure up to anothers standards, doesnt make it any less valuable.

[DeusTrismegistus]

I can't see why suggesting that "Chinese have not made major strides in international MMA" (which seems to be more on-point than the OP) is racist.

There again, few nations have: Big picture, the only countries producing multiple world-class fighters are Brazil, Japan, Russia, USA and that is about it.

Sure, there are a handful of star fighters like McGregor from other countries - but McGregor's success does not mean that Ireland is suddenly an MMA powerhouse: He is just one chap.

What may be more germane is this. There are more CMAs than any other nation's martial art. (And this is not simply a result of there being more Chinese than any other people: China has, for whatever reason, churned out a hell of a lot of traditional fighting styles.) However, this huge plethora of MA have had no impact on, or influence upon, the burgeoning international sport of MMA. Instead, MMA today is largely a combo of widely disseminated sports fighting formats (boxing and rassling) and only recently disseminated sport fighting formats (Thai boxing and BJJ). Sure, I know that "CMA are not meant for the ring" but given the vastness of CMA martial culture surely there is SOME crossover potential...?

Would be interested to hear what Taiji concepts, tactics or techniques Windwalker is teaching to MMA peeps that they find applicable...

Andy,

There are some kung fu based stylists training and doing MMA. Scott Sheeley is one of them and is in the kung fu organization my teacher is in. His website is here. I don't think he uses much Tai chi though.

http://www.ohiofitnessmartialarts.com/Fighters.html