Chen Qingzhou passed

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby Bhassler on Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:02 pm

Andy_S wrote:I believe this is what Chen Fa-ke did with his xinjia frame of Taiji. In so doing, he went against the grain of almost all other Taiji forms: He gave the frames more of an "exo-skeleton" so students could pick up the mechanics of the movement.


I was told that the more overt opening and closing of the chest was added by Chen Zhao Kui due to the fact that he was shorter and stockier than his father and couldn't generate the same power using the conventional method so he emphasized what worked for him. He also emphasized chin-na more than most of his contemporaries. Chen Fake made concessions for teaching (i.e. creating silk reeling exercises) but I never heard one way or the other about CZK.
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Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby Andy_S on Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:08 am

SNIP
I was told that the more overt opening and closing of the chest was added by Chen Zhao Kui due to the fact that he was shorter and stockier than his father and couldn't generate the same power using the conventional method so he emphasized what worked for him
SNIP

Hmmm. My two cents:
(1) Seems a dubious assertion. Evidence? The late, great Feng Zhiqiang did a LOT of very obvious chest open-close (more so than Chen Yu, I would say), and he learned from Fake, not from Zhaokui;
(2) I don't think anyone would not want the ability to squeeze out just that little bit more power; and
(2) Zhaokui was shorter but more thickly built than his father, who was a bit of a bean pole (judging from photos). Fake looked wiry and sinewy but not an all-out powerhouse - but by all accounts he had real force. So I would guess he used all methods, all the way up the chain, to generate his ooomphhh.

This is, of course, speculation, but it is interesting to wonder how and why the two major forms of dajia diverged.

Then you have Hong's Practical Method, which originated from Fake, but is now a very different beast, in terms of both mechanics and techniques, to the laojia and xinjia forms.
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Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:00 am

Bhassler wrote: I was told that the more overt opening and closing of the chest was added by Chen Zhao Kui due to the fact that he was shorter and stockier than his father and couldn't generate the same power using the conventional method so he emphasized what worked for him.


Makes sense. Forms should be adjusted to suite one owns body and combative interests.

Andy_S wrote:I think Taiji has gone wrong over the decades, as the art has become too soft, too subtle, too much of an old man's - or rather, old master's - style. Certainly, this soft, subtle, internalized style is the acme of the art. The question is: How do you get to that point?


That is a very important question.

I agree that obvious, bigger movements are important to begin with. But I would rather call this to develop "long movement". Long movement is a connected structure that begins from and is supporter by the feet and spine. It's the same kind of movements you later use, but it becomes less visible and internalized.

I also do agree that you need some strength. Otherwise there's nothing to relax with. A strong body with a solid structure relax better. The problem as I see it is too give up the feeling of strength. To internalize the art is very much a mental process and has very little to do with either being strong or week. It takes courage to change.
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Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby amor on Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:48 am

Bao wrote:I think Taiji has gone wrong over the decades, as the art has become too soft, too subtle, too much of an old man's - or rather, old master's - style. Certainly, this soft, subtle, internalized style is the acme of the art. The question is: How do you get to that point?

That is a very important question.

I agree that obvious, bigger movements are important to begin with. But I would rather call this to develop "long movement". Long movement is a connected structure that begins from and is supporter by the feet and spine. It's the same kind of movements you later use, but it becomes less visible and internalized.

I also do agree that you need some strength. Otherwise there's nothing to relax with. A strong body with a solid structure relax better. The problem as I see it is too give up the feeling of strength. To internalize the art is very much a mental process and has very little to do with either being strong or week. It takes courage to change.



Kind of agree that it is about going from big to small frame or internalizing the larger movements. Although I'd say you would train the 3 components i.e. silk-reeling (whole-body), intent and internal power with the most important being the silk-reeling one. That is not to say the other 2 are less important but for the fact that the silk-reeling component really is the pre-requisite or foundation upon which to build the other 2.
I know some ex training partners who had alot of consolidated internalpower the type that would send someone bouncing back from within an inch distance but their form was really crap because they didn't give as much weighting to silk-reeling which they would understand from doing the form extremely slowly, that's how I got what little I know concerning the silk-reeling exercises, from the form, not looking at manuals of chen xin and others, which helps after you've done some practical methods.
But I find it annoying that members of yang style say that silk-reeling is a wholly chen style training exercise when I would say it's applicable to all taichi styles.

Again, agreed on the mind thing it's really very weird how you just want to stay put in a confrontation and wait for them to come to you and then do your best to keep them close because that's the way you begin to operate via the training when you start to make use of intent. But I prefer a more active approach to make the first move sometimes.

Do you also prefer to be both active as well as passive and if so how do you complement this active approach in a in training in preparation for a confrontation event ?
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Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:41 am

amor wrote:Again, agreed on the mind thing it's really very weird how you just want to stay put in a confrontation and wait for them to come to you and then do your best to keep them close because that's the way you begin to operate via the training when you start to make use of intent. But I prefer a more active approach to make the first move sometimes.

Do you also prefer to be both active as well as passive and if so how do you complement this active approach in a in training in preparation for a confrontation event ?


I don't see soft and relaxed as passive. I rather go in, put my hands on his guard or throw a punch to provoke a reaction. Then he will give you something to work with, something to follow. The passive approach is IMHO a mistake. You can not wait for your opponent, then you'll be forced to follow his rules. Even not doing something or before you do something should IMHO be active. You should understand distance and connect to him with distance and angle.

Li Yaxuan:
"Even before physical contact, with a single glance you join contact with the opponent or partner, establishing a firm connection with him. Adherence can begin even at this stage, prior to physical contact. This is important because when you are working in a more intensive competitive or combative mode, if you depend on physical contact to start your adherence, that’s too late and you’re going to be too slow to exploit any advantage of timing or positioning."

Now, softness and relaxation is something else than being passive. IME it has a lot to do with tingjin, not forcing your strength, but feeling the gaps and where to fill in. But to be sensative and fast enough, you really need to be very, very soft. You really need to give up strength, There might even be a feeling of weekness, that your structure could collapse Anytime or at any touch. But your body can take care of you structure and movement if you just let go of the control and trust your body. There's a whole lot of trust involved being soft when someone launch attacks at you, almost comparable with faith in a religious sense. This is what I mean that it takes courage. Our Instincts tells us to be strong and protect us with strength, not be soft and feel weak. But again, if you want to be fast in you movements and rely on tingjin, there's no other way doing it. You need to give up the feeling of protective strength.
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Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby Bhassler on Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:00 am

Andy_S wrote:SNIP
I was told that the more overt opening and closing of the chest was added by Chen Zhao Kui due to the fact that he was shorter and stockier than his father and couldn't generate the same power using the conventional method so he emphasized what worked for him
SNIP

Hmmm. My two cents:
(1) Seems a dubious assertion. Evidence? The late, great Feng Zhiqiang did a LOT of very obvious chest open-close (more so than Chen Yu, I would say), and he learned from Fake, not from Zhaokui;
(2) I don't think anyone would not want the ability to squeeze out just that little bit more power; and
(2) Zhaokui was shorter but more thickly built than his father, who was a bit of a bean pole (judging from photos). Fake looked wiry and sinewy but not an all-out powerhouse - but by all accounts he had real force. So I would guess he used all methods, all the way up the chain, to generate his ooomphhh.

This is, of course, speculation, but it is interesting to wonder how and why the two major forms of dajia diverged.

Then you have Hong's Practical Method, which originated from Fake, but is now a very different beast, in terms of both mechanics and techniques, to the laojia and xinjia forms.


No evidence, just an interesting story. My teacher's teacher learned from CZK. The story was that it's the length of your spine that determines your basic power, so a shorter spine means you have to do other stuff to compensate.
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Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby amor on Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:44 am

Bao wrote:


Now, softness and relaxation is something else than being passive. IME it has a lot to do with tingjin, not forcing your strength, but feeling the gaps and where to fill in. But to be sensative and fast enough, you really need to be very, very soft. You really need to give up strength, There might even be a feeling of weekness, that your structure could collapse Anytime or at any touch. But your body can take care of you structure and movement if you just let go of the control and trust your body. There's a whole lot of trust involved being soft when someone launch attacks at you, almost comparable with faith in a religious sense. This is what I mean that it takes courage. Our Instincts tells us to be strong and protect us with strength, not be soft and feel weak. But again, if you want to be fast in you movements and rely on tingjin, there's no other way doing it. You need to give up the feeling of protective strength.



I think the apparent 'weakness' that one feels is the result of focusing on too much 'sinking' activities. Sinking is great and all for becoming soft and relaxed but you don't want to indulging yourself in it. This softness that comes about from 'sinking' really does expose your internal structural weakness in terms of the fascia/jing-lo and internal musculature. Once we've passed this stage ideally the focus becomes more on rising which is the point we start to strengthen our internals and start to become familiar with becoming or feeling strong, again. It does take courage to continue because to some people this sudden loss of strength might have psychological repercussions because you really can't fight at this stage and you're going to be in it for quite a while, years perhaps, until you've built up some internal strength so you feel 'supported'. and balanced once again, only now it's true balance not fake as the body decays throughout a typical lifespan.
Once you get passed it then you'll have the added bonus of strong support internally and soft, relaxed on the outside. You'll never look the part as in a muscle-bound freak on steroids but as the chi gets to the exterior and consequently the blood, you'll get more of a 'boulder' look so looking skinny is only a temporary phase.

But on the passive vs active maybe cross-training in xingyi or bagua after all all Wang Xiangzai was known to to use taiji neutralization coupled with xingyi striking and bagua footwork.
A teacher once said to me to defeat a xingyi person you would just need to smash him in one go, to defeat a bagua person you would need to tear him apart (harder than a xingyi person) but to defeat taichi person you would need to break him down piece by piece (the hardest of all). Still doesn't make too much sense to me but slowly getting it.
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Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:58 am

amor wrote:I think the apparent 'weakness' that one feels is the result of focusing on too much 'sinking' activities. Sinking is great and all for becoming soft and relaxed but you don't want to indulging yourself in it. This softness that comes about from 'sinking' really does expose your internal structural weakness in terms of the fascia/jing-lo and internal musculature.



I don't quite get your message here. Sinking is to relax and abandon the strength that normally hold up your structure so you'll engage deeper muscles to hold up your structure. Only if you can sink down the strength down to the feet and relax the legs you can start building roots. Actually, from this perspective, sinking is building strength.


But on the passive vs active maybe cross-training in xingyi or bagua after all all Wang Xiangzai was known to to use taiji neutralization coupled with xingyi striking and bagua footwork.


I don't believe in cross-training tai chi with other styles. At least it's not the right path if you want to understand true tai chi skills.

A teacher once said to me to defeat a xingyi person you would just need to smash him in one go, to defeat a bagua person you would need to tear him apart (harder than a xingyi person) but to defeat taichi person you would need to break him down piece by piece (the hardest of all). Still doesn't make too much sense to me but slowly getting it.


So for a cross trainer, you have three different alternatives to defeat him?
... Or for a tai chi fighter, you can just mostly just run him down.
I am not a fan of simplificationes and generalizations.
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Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby amor on Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:30 pm

I don't quite get your message here. Sinking is to relax and abandon the strength that normally hold up your structure so you'll engage deeper muscles to hold up your structure. Only if you can sink down the strength down to the feet and relax the legs you can start building roots. Actually, from this perspective, sinking is building strength.


OK, sounds we are talking about the same thing just different terminology, in my practice there is a clear sense of rising as opposed to the sinking phase hence I just called it 'rising' to distinguish.




I don't believe in cross-training tai chi with other styles. At least it's not the right path if you want to understand true tai chi skills.


I couldn't agree more but I think I'll just explore, a little, while I'm on the journey until I arrive at the true understanding if I ever do. Incidentally I seem to recall Doc Steir made a system based off of the 3 IMA sister styles maybe he can chime in on this -shrug-


So for a cross trainer, you have three different alternatives to defeat him?
... Or for a tai chi fighter, you can just mostly just run him down.
I am not a fan of simplificationes and generalizations.


Fair enough, yes perhaps it was a gross oversimplification, to dissect it would be complicated and I don't want to wrack my brain or yours over it.
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Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:27 pm

amor wrote:
I don't believe in cross-training tai chi with other styles. At least it's not the right path if you want to understand true tai chi skills.


I couldn't agree more but I think I'll just explore, a little, while I'm on the journey until I arrive at the true understanding if I ever do. Incidentally I seem to recall Doc Steir made a system based off of the 3 IMA sister styles maybe he can chime in on this -shrug-


You mean the Shenmentao I assume. I don't think it was Mr Stier who created it. Old yang tai chi, Sun bagua and Xingyi.
There are other systems as well, as the Sun family arts, a collection of Hao tai chi, Cheng bagua and hebei xingyi.

I'm just talking from my own almost 30 years of tai chi practice. Not a long time compared to others here. I like bagua and xingyi very much. I have practiced these arts and briefly tested others. But tai chi is where my heart is. The thing is that the tai chi mind is just empty. There's no animal flavor, no elements, no special fighting mentality, no nothing. It's just empty. And there's really no room for anything else inside emptiness. ;)
Last edited by Bao on Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby amor on Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:53 am

Bao wrote:
I'm just talking from my own almost 30 years of tai chi practice. Not a long time compared to others here. I like bagua and xingyi very much. I have practiced these arts and briefly tested others. But tai chi is where my heart is. The thing is that the tai chi mind is just empty. There's no animal flavor, no elements, no special fighting mentality, no nothing. It's just empty. And there's really no room for anything else inside emptiness. ;)


Yes the duration of training does count for something but is that 20+ years of just plain quantity or pure quality, I'm not commenting on your own 30 years but there are others on here who do make the claim for quantity training time yet it does not show in their writings but you can not judge on writings alone so better to judge from a video. I have done IMA for just over 10 years now but I'd say only 3 or 4 years were about quality but prior to that I was doing variant forms of shaolin and good old karate/kickboxing for good measure ;)
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Re: Chen Qingzhou passed

Postby greytowhite on Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:55 am

Andy_S wrote:Greytowhite:

What disillusioned him about the xinjia?


Mmm... Well, the fellow was himself a generational inheritor of a sacred shamanic art from the Yucatec Maya and felt that the "innovations" of xinjia did not properly respect the tradition of taijiquan. Also, Chen Xiaowang's disciple he studied with went back to the laojia after unsuccessfully trying to teach xinjia martially. I guess he thought if he was going to have to focus on laojia he might as well learn from someone else that was also so inclined.
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