Trapping

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Trapping

Postby Bhassler on Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:20 am

No, I'm saying sport fighting is only one small slice of a very big pie.
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Re: Trapping

Postby Mr_Wood on Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:41 am

the word also implies setting a trap, not just taking control of a limb but being 2 steps ahead, knowing your opponents options and capitalising on this knowledge.
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Re: Trapping

Postby johnwang on Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:29 pm

May be we should define what "trap" is. When you use your right hand to grab on your opponent's right wrist, if your opponent tries to punch you with his left fist, you can use your right hand to pull his right arm to your right (his left) to interrupt his left hand punch or even his kick.

Since in CMA, "手不空回 - you should never pull your punching hand back empty" is a very important principle, This is a major difference between the CMA and boxing. With boxing gloves on, it's pretty hard for any boxer to pull.

IMO, when you punch and your opponent blocks, instead of just pull your punching hand back, you should pull your opponent's blocking arm back with you. This way, it will be harder for him to move back. You can then create a perfect head on collision with A + B > A.

Of course you can think in

- "micro view", a punch is just a punch.
- "macro view", a punch can be a punch plus a pull.

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Re: Trapping

Postby Taste of Death on Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:57 pm

johnwang wrote:May be we should define what "trap" is. When you use your right hand to grab on your opponent's right wrist, if your opponent tries to punch you with his left fist, you can use your right hand to pull his right arm to your right (his left) to interrupt his left hand punch or even his kick.

Since in CMA, "手不空回 - you should never pull your punching hand back empty" is a very important principle, This is a major difference between the CMA and boxing. With boxing gloves on, it's pretty hard for any boxer to pull.

IMO, when you punch and your opponent blocks, instead of just pull your punching hand back, you should pull your opponent's blocking arm back with you. This way, it will be harder for him to move back. You can then create a perfect head on collision with A + B > A.


Don't pull him to you. Pull yourself to him

Pull yourself to the mountain. Don't pull the mountain to you.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trapping

Postby johnwang on Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:54 pm

Taste of Death wrote:Don't pull him to you. Pull yourself to him

Pull yourself to the mountain. Don't pull the mountain to you.

Agree! The counter force of your pulling can give you the "initial" forward momentum. It's as simple as "borrow force".
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Re: Trapping

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:56 pm

Trapping isn't only a part of Yongchunquan, but EVERY CMA. One doesn't go looking to trap a boxer's limb, but snatch it when the chance comes up. When my Shifu hooks or grabs my arm or wrist the weight is unbearable and the downwards shock (due to the speed at which he pulls it down) is devastating. I instantly lose my balance. This requires specific Gongli training. If I try to pull my arm back, he rushes forward and uses combinations of attacks to subdue him. If I go with the flow I'll probably find an elbow or Qinna waiting for me..

The fact that you think trapping is some patty-cakes bullshit shows that you've never experienced it with a real master. And, no, it doesn't look like Tuishou or Chishou when applied in Sanshou AND it can be applied with even 16oz gloves (but more for striking). Just because you can only use it in 1% of all encounters does not mean that that is true for everyone.
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Re: Trapping

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:57 pm

johnwang wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:Don't pull him to you. Pull yourself to him

Pull yourself to the mountain. Don't pull the mountain to you.

Agree! The counter force of your pulling can give you the "initial" forward momentum. It's as simple as "borrow force".

Yes, that is what my Shifu would do in the above example.
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Re: Trapping

Postby Taste of Death on Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:02 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:Don't pull him to you. Pull yourself to him

Pull yourself to the mountain. Don't pull the mountain to you.

Agree! The counter force of your pulling can give you the "initial" forward momentum. It's as simple as "borrow force".

Yes, that is what my Shifu would do in the above example.


johnwang wrote:You can then create a perfect head on collision


When you pull yourself to him it is you who collides into him instead of him colliding into you.
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Re: Trapping

Postby Ba-men on Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:18 pm

Bhassler wrote:No, I'm saying sport fighting is only one small slice of a very big pie.


Not to troll.... but if you can't get it done with rules and a referee by your side. "WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU CAN GET IT DONE anywhere else?"

I have never witnessed in person or viewed any film of WC or JKD trapping ever done in any serious competitive venue. I've seen very simple unmodified trapping work but NO art could lay a claim to that and... as stated... what I've witnessed is few and far in-between. Nuff said! The proof is in any 5 min search on Youtube in the field of any competitive sport fighting venue (MMA Sanda, Sanshou, Muai Thai or Kick Boxing, Boxing...... or a trip to the local boxing gym. Once reality sets in... i.e. that it doesn't work against someone who has just a little experience in any competitive sport boxing (or kick boxing/muai thai) or against someone just a little adept at competitive grappling/wrestling ..... People then start grasping...... believing that somehow there is a secret formula for making this junk work. they convince themselves they just haven't found it yet. Or (thinking they are practical....) mind fuck themselves into believing they just haven't practiced it hard enough!

(BUT in all reality, no amount of practice will make this junk work against a skilled opponent.... these are too specific of skill sets it's/they are too easily countered with RUDIMENTARY SKILLS!
It's funny when two prominent/famous WC Masters squared off in the last decade(I forget their names) and it went straight to the floor. probably still on Youtube for all to see.

People who believe that mastering a very specific skill set like sticky hands is the path to having real prowess. After years and years of frustration and making up excuses about themselves, their art and their teachers..... after refusing to address reality..... end up scrapping everything they know and cherry picking. i.e. looking for the best. (which doesn't exist.) How many Ex WC practitioners have I run into coaching... I can't count that high...

[i](hopefully your not playing the cherry picking game already by bouncing from one style to another)


If people would just look at their art objectively, throwing out the BS (as all arts have!!!!!!!!!!) and pursuing the arts natural truth(s) i.e what really works against real opposition. They would in the end have something of real value. WC, JKD has a lot to offer.... but trapping mastery IMO isn't one of them. Or shouldn't be! It should only be a small part of the total picture. I'm not into WC but from what I see.... it looks to have just as many "slips" and 'shield's as traps.... Why are not those pursued with the same vigor by your average WC practitioner?
Last edited by Ba-men on Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trapping

Postby johnwang on Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:18 pm

Taste of Death wrote:When you pull yourself to him it is you who collides into him instead of him colliding into you.

It depends on which part of your body collide on which part of your opponent's body. If you can let your fist to collide onto your opponent's face, whether you use your fist to meet his face, or he uses his face to meet your fist, the result is all the same.

Newton's 3 law:

When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body.
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Trapping

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:31 pm

Trapping is in every art boxing included
On the street it is in plague proportions
Some do it better than others but is always there
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Trapping

Postby Taste of Death on Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:23 pm

johnwang wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:When you pull yourself to him it is you who collides into him instead of him colliding into you.

It depends on which part of your body collide on which part of your opponent's body. If you can let your fist to collide onto your opponent's face, whether you use your fist to meet his face, or he uses his face to meet your fist, the result is all the same.

Newton's 3 law:

When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body.


When I touch my opponent's arm to pull myself to him it is like pulling myself along a hand rail. I have momentum while applying very little force.
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Re: Trapping

Postby Bhassler on Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:56 pm

Ba-men wrote:
Bhassler wrote:No, I'm saying sport fighting is only one small slice of a very big pie.


Not to troll.... but if you can't get it done with rules and a referee by your side. "WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU CAN GET IT DONE anywhere else?"


I don't know anything about JKD or Wing Chun, so maybe we're talking about different things entirely. I think of trapping as a momentary inhibition of an opponent's limb-- pretty simple and in application it's not clearly defined from blocking, attacking, moving, etc. The distinction is useful for practice and learning, but I don't think anyone who's experienced would try to use it as a technique by itself any more than they would jab once and expect a fight to be over because they touched the other guy's nose.

That said, a criminal attacker does not want to fight you, he wants to take you out. It's common for that sort of attack to be an all out blitz with no warning and no thought given to defense beyond the fact that you won't be fighting back once you're bleeding and unconscious on the ground. That's very different from an opponent who knows you are also trained and who is squaring up from 15 feet away and will attempt to carefully dictate range and everything else so that they can score cumulative damage to you with minimal risk to themselves. I'm sure there are lots of other examples, and it may or may not be relevant to trapping specifically, I just think the assumption that what works in the ring has a direct correlation to what works in various "street" scenarios (or vice versa) is faulty reasoning.
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Re: Trapping

Postby somatai on Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:04 pm

Bhassler wrote:
Ba-men wrote:
Bhassler wrote:No, I'm saying sport fighting is only one small slice of a very big pie.


Not to troll.... but if you can't get it done with rules and a referee by your side. "WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU CAN GET IT DONE anywhere else?"


I don't know anything about JKD or Wing Chun, so maybe we're talking about different things entirely. I think of trapping as a momentary inhibition of an opponent's limb-- pretty simple and in application it's not clearly defined from blocking, attacking, moving, etc. The distinction is useful for practice and learning, but I don't think anyone who's experienced would try to use it as a technique by itself any more than they would jab once and expect a fight to be over because they touched the other guy's nose.

That said, a criminal attacker does not want to fight you, he wants to take you out. It's common for that sort of attack to be an all out blitz with no warning and no thought given to defense beyond the fact that you won't be fighting back once you're bleeding and unconscious on the ground. That's very different from an opponent who knows you are also trained and who is squaring up from 15 feet away and will attempt to carefully dictate range and everything else so that they can score cumulative damage to you with minimal risk to themselves. I'm sure there are lots of other examples, and it may or may not be relevant to trapping specifically, I just think the assumption that what works in the ring has a direct correlation to what works in various "street" scenarios (or vice versa) is faulty reasoning.


+1
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Re: Trapping

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:33 pm

Ba-men wrote:
Bhassler wrote:No, I'm saying sport fighting is only one small slice of a very big pie.


Not to troll.... but if you can't get it done with rules and a referee by your side. "WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU CAN GET IT DONE anywhere else?"

I have never witnessed in person or viewed any film of WC or JKD trapping ever done in any serious competitive venue. I've seen very simple unmodified trapping work but NO art could lay a claim to that and... as stated... what I've witnessed is few and far in-between. Nuff said! The proof is in any 5 min search on Youtube in the field of any competitive sport fighting venue (MMA Sanda, Sanshou, Muai Thai or Kick Boxing, Boxing...... or a trip to the local boxing gym. Once reality sets in... i.e. that it doesn't work against someone who has just a little experience in any competitive sport boxing (or kick boxing/muai thai) or against someone just a little adept at competitive grappling/wrestling ..... People then start grasping...... believing that somehow there is a secret formula for making this junk work. they convince themselves they just haven't found it yet. Or (thinking they are practical....) mind fuck themselves into believing they just haven't practiced it hard enough!

(BUT in all reality, no amount of practice will make this junk work against a skilled opponent.... these are too specific of skill sets it's/they are too easily countered with RUDIMENTARY SKILLS!
It's funny when two prominent/famous WC Masters squared off in the last decade(I forget their names) and it went straight to the floor. probably still on Youtube for all to see.

People who believe that mastering a very specific skill set like sticky hands is the path to having real prowess. After years and years of frustration and making up excuses about themselves, their art and their teachers..... after refusing to address reality..... end up scrapping everything they know and cherry picking. i.e. looking for the best. (which doesn't exist.) How many Ex WC practitioners have I run into coaching... I can't count that high...

[i](hopefully your not playing the cherry picking game already by bouncing from one style to another)


If people would just look at their art objectively, throwing out the BS (as all arts have!!!!!!!!!!) and pursuing the arts natural truth(s) i.e what really works against real opposition. They would in the end have something of real value. WC, JKD has a lot to offer.... but trapping mastery IMO isn't one of them. Or shouldn't be! It should only be a small part of the total picture. I'm not into WC but from what I see.... it looks to have just as many "slips" and 'shield's as traps.... Why are not those pursued with the same vigor by your average WC practitioner?

Most CMA sucks, so I still believe that you have run into anyone that can use trapping. I have also repeatedly stated that it's every CMA that trains it, that it's only a part of training, that no one traps all day like in Chishou or Tuishou (because that is training sensitivity, not sparring) etc. etc. If there isn't anyone in MMA that can trap worth shite then that just means that they didn't train it or at least didn't train it well enough. Or that their opponent has simply outclassed them. But the amount of competent TCMAists at these venues is not a representative number at all. Frankly, I think that you are ignorant and or have an agenda...
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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