A (Hopefully) Instant Remedy For Any More 'Knife Defence' BS

[lazyboxer]

Anyone here who still thinks they have a snowball's chance in hell of dealing successfully with a sudden and determined knife attack should read the following long article NOW (written by someone who knows).

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

[CaseyAPayne]

I've been through that guys stuff before, it's good. I've watched a number of knife "fight" compilations, like this one (you'll have to be logging in to see it).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMaznt3a_7Q

I used to walk around with one of those collapsible police batons (I don't think it was legal). Whether I had it with me or not, the best move is to not, ever, let yourself be in a situation where you would be "surprised" like that. While not perfect, try to keep those spidey senses up. That's just situational awareness and understanding space. I'd love to take an actual course on that (I assume there are), but "common" sense can take you far.

After that, from what I've gathered watching videos, you want to put AS MUCH distance between you and the attacker as quickly as possible and find some kind of weapon (anything) if you end up cornered. Personally I would opt for endlessly increasing distance. Things change when there's other people involved. I'd still put distance and find something though (anything, a monitor, a trash can, a chair, etc.). You can't help anyone else without helping yourself first. I'd also be trying to kill/maim/totally subdue because, fuck that.

[RobP2]

Anyone here who still thinks they have a snowball's chance in hell of dealing successfully with a sudden and determined knife attack should read the following long article NOW (written by someone who knows).

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

Does that include the people who have, uh, dealt successfully with a sudden and determined knife attack? And yep it's all well and good, but all obvious to anyone with experience, or even anyone who claims to have experience...

[Bhassler]

The main reason it is a lie is that you cannot "fight" an armed opponent. You can survive against one and you might even be able to successfully put him down before he causes you any major damage...but, whatever you do, it must be fast, effective and brutal. If it isn't, then you will not stop him before he causes you major damage.

This is pretty much the only part of the article that says anything about how to deal with a knife attack. The point of the article is not how to defend against a knife, or to suggest that it can't be done, it's just to point out some of the mistaken assumptions that some people seem to have that could be interfering with effective training. Just because Marc doesn't like a lot of the BS that's grown up around MA doesn't mean he doesn't like and respect greatly the good work that is being done.

[roger hao]

So.....................just submit to knife attack and die?

[lazyboxer]

Does that include the people who have, uh, dealt successfully with a sudden and determined knife attack? And yep it's all well and good, but all obvious to anyone with experience, or even anyone who claims to have experience...

Yes, obvious that (A) you're almost certain to get cut however good you may be (or die finding out you weren't as good/ lucky as you thought you were) and (B) your only real options are to

1.Run, or then
2.Get cut, in which case trade a cut for a kill and nothing else.

You'll discover which option (if any) you ended up with in about one second of the initiation of the attack, by which time your fate will have been sealed, for good or ill. I suppose such an outcome could be described as 'successful', though I really used the term to refer to the unrealistic expectations many still seem to nourish that anyone is going to walk away unscathed from such an encounter.

Just because Marc doesn't like a lot of the BS that's grown up around MA doesn't mean he doesn't like and respect greatly the good work that is being done.

True, but read again what he says about the inadequacy of even best-of-class knife work to cope with out of context, random and unpredictable assaults.

So.....................just submit to knife attack and die?

Did you read the article?

[yeniseri]

The article is wonderful, nice and it is absolute in much of what is written but it also must be taken with a grain of salt and water. Again, there is some truth in what is written!
Here are some points:
1. If someone attacks you, you have the right of self defense. Shoot the bitch!
2. Everyone like guns so one is justified (ownership if that is your goal) Your environment dictates 80-90% of an outcome so be always prepared
3. If you go buying drugs in a part of town that you have no knowledge then that is bad. Be armed according to the law! Legality is important, you knoe
4. For 95% of us here, these scenarios are highly unlikely.
5. Beware of those "skinning" their teeth in you face while they want to take your place (from the song, ah stole it, yes) if they are good enough, they will get their way whether you have a gun or not. Know your friends and your enemies!
6. No art is invincible. No one is invincible. Be prepared as best as you can. Hopefully, we all claim to train the right way so we will all live to be at a ripe old age except for stupidity, disease or natural disaster. Be well.

[Bao]

1. If someone attacks you, you have the right of self defense. Shoot the bitch!

http://youtu.be/afi7_01GnxY

[middleway]

1.Run, or then
2.Get cut, in which case trade a cut for a kill and nothing else.

The Run thing, as i have now said a million times is horse shit for some people and recommending it as an option will likely get them killed. This commonly spouted bit of nonsense assumes that you are in good physical shape/better physical shape than the attacker ... and the people i know from the dodgy side of life are Running for a living, from the cops or their peers, they spend their lives on their feet, scraping together a life ... not sat all day in an office. They most likely will catch you, then they most likely will kill you if that's what they want to do.

If its not their intention to kill you (robbery etc) then the first thing you should be doing is complying wholeheartedly with whatever they want ... not running, not fighting ...

ref point 2.
You should be looking to disable the attacker fully, put them unconscious or immobilized by breaking their limbs. Attack with the ferocity of an animal and put them out. Once out, make your escape. The 'trade a cut for a kill' again is too much IMO. if they die fine, but the goal is safe escape.

cheers
Chris.

[RobP2]

Yes, obvious that (A) you're almost certain to get cut however good you may be (or die finding out you weren't as good/ lucky as you thought you were) and (B) your only real options are to

1.Run, or then
2.Get cut, in which case trade a cut for a kill and nothing else.

You'll discover which option (if any) you ended up with in about one second of the initiation of the attack, by which time your fate will have been sealed, for good or ill. I suppose such an outcome could be described as 'successful', though I really used the term to refer to the unrealistic expectations many still seem to nourish that anyone is going to walk away unscathed from such an encounter.

Just because Marc doesn't like a lot of the BS that's grown up around MA doesn't mean he doesn't like and respect greatly the good work that is being done.

True, but read again what he says about the inadequacy of even best-of-class knife work to cope with out of context, random and unpredictable assaults.

So.....................just submit to knife attack and die?

Did you read the article?

Nothing is obvious except to those who like to peddle their work through articles like this kind of "combatives porn" . Do you know how this comes across to people who have actually been through these kind of situations?



Running is a great option unless it isn't an option
Getting cut is a distinct possibility that must be factored into training
Having some kind of equalizer can be a good thing etc etc etc

But all this can be got across without the kind of LARPing theatrics / tough guy personas that characterise much of the combatives world

[GrahamB]

How does it come across Rob?

(I have never been attacked with a knife).

[D_Glenn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axW-xFjofRs

Blood? Yes.
Urine? Maybe.
But Feces? Uhhmmm maybe, but only if the dead guy had been going commando in some loose basketball shorts, or you happened to kill him when he was running home, after just eating a bowl of rotten Pho from "Pho No.129", and he needed to get home to explode/ explosively use his toilet.

.

[Bhassler]

Just because Marc doesn't like a lot of the BS that's grown up around MA doesn't mean he doesn't like and respect greatly the good work that is being done.

True, but read again what he says about the inadequacy of even best-of-class knife work to cope with out of context, random and unpredictable assaults.

I've trained with Marc for a number of years, so I have a decent idea of what his approach to knife defense is. If you point me to the specific part of the article you're talking about, I can elaborate on my understanding of it, for what it's worth.

But all this can be got across without the kind of LARPing theatrics / tough guy personas that characterise much of the combatives world

That's actually just kind of how Marc talks. He's an animated dude and that's how the older guys acted when he was growing up-- the stereo type came from somewhere. Marc was doing it long before the RBSD tough guy persona became it's own meme, and as a whole he dislikes the RBSD/combatives world. At times he speaks much the same way in person, but it's in a mix with dick jokes and silly movie references and everything else. Marc is very colorful because in his experience that's what makes it accessible for the people he deals with. I also suspect that when he started that was the sort of thing that a lot of MAists needed to see as a shock to their way of thinking. You could argue that times have changed, but Marc is still.... Marc.

I can say from having read Marc's work before meeting him that my understanding of what he writes has changed greatly-- there are just a lot of nuances that are easily misunderstood if the reader already has certain expectations.

[lazyboxer]

The Run thing, as i have now said a million times is horse shit for some people and recommending it as an option will likely get them killed. This commonly spouted bit of nonsense assumes that you are in good physical shape/better physical shape than the attacker ... and the people i know from the dodgy side of life are Running for a living, from the cops or their peers, they spend their lives on their feet, scraping together a life ... not sat all day in an office. They most likely will catch you, then they most likely will kill you if that's what they want to do.

If its not their intention to kill you (robbery etc) then the first thing you should be doing is complying wholeheartedly with whatever they want ... not running, not fighting ...

It's obviously not an option if you can't outrun the evildoer, so the only other choice is to stand and fight, if you have reason to believe your life is at stake. That's part of the kind of advance strategy we're discussing here.

Regarding your second observation, I once 'complied wholeheartedly' with a couple of hoodlums armed with a gun and a knife who invaded my apartment in New York and spent a very uncomfortable hour trussed up with wire while they robbed me. I remember having to make a quick decision whether to fight or not (I only had a two second window) and decided not. But what if they had decided to torture me?

Just because Marc doesn't like a lot of the BS that's grown up around MA doesn't mean he doesn't like and respect greatly the good work that is being done.

True, but read again what he says about the inadequacy of even best-of-class knife work to cope with out of context, random and unpredictable assaults.

I've trained with Marc for a number of years, so I have a decent idea of what his approach to knife defense is. If you point me to the specific part of the article you're talking about, I can elaborate on my understanding of it, for what it's worth.

Here's a for instance from his article:

I have a demonstration that I do during knife seminars. I find the highest ranking Filipino martial arts player present and I tell him to check and pass my attack. I then proceed to do a well balanced, fast, cautious attack. This is a legitimate and fast attack, and they tend to block it. I then tell them to block the another attack - and aiming for the same target - I do a prison yard rush on them. To this day I have gutted everyone of them.

The reason? They are entirely different knife attacks.

Many years ago Don Pentacost wrote a book called Put 'em down, take 'em out: Knife fighting from Folsom Prison. In it Don pointed out how actual knife homicides occurred in maximum security prisons. Putting it mildly, he outraged countless martial artists by what he said in that book, who to this day still disparage the book. Except for one thing, that prison yard rush is exactly what I use to gut so many of them. It is not a sophisticated attack, but it is a very common way to attack someone with a knife in the USA.

The FMA are predicated on one basic assumption, that you will be fighting a trained knifer. The problem with that assumption is that not everyone attacks the way that someone trained in the FMA will attack you. This is problematic because the counters of the FMA are designed to work against how people with FMA training will attack you. Against these kinds of attacks, the counters work great.

Looking forward to your comments on the above.

But all this can be got across without the kind of LARPing theatrics / tough guy personas that characterise much of the combatives world

I'm sure it can, but that shouldn't affect the validity of the message. I spent over fifteen years living in the USA and have a highly developed bombast filter.

[Bhassler]

The prison yard rush is indeed out of context for what many MA schools train for, but it is not random or unpredictable. The reason it works so well against MA guys in a seminar is that they have an expectation for what's going to happen, and by the time they adjust their thinking it's all over. That and the fact that there are some dirty tricks involved that don't work well in drills, so a lot of systems no longer train to deal with them. A lot of what Marc does is take what people already train and expand the context in which they can apply their stuff. Once a decently trained FMA guy understands how a prison rush is set up and what to add to their base techniques to counter it, all the previous training comes back into play and the formerly unstoppable prison rush turns into a lemming face-planting into a cuisinart.* Rory Miller puts it pretty succinctly when he says that many martial artists spend decades finding solutions but never stop to really look at what the question is-- i.e. how do attacks happen in the real world? I think that's the big takeaway from the article, not that a knife attack is a hopeless situation.

Running away is a great example. It's true that if someone really wants to go somewhere else and is willing to travel over, around, or through you, it's difficult to stop them. It's also true that many people don't have the physical tools to outrun a criminal. The question is, in what context is someone going to attack you with a knife such that they would be determined enough to chase you down to kill you? Why would someone want to kill you in the first place? Where are you likely to be when said person makes their attempt? What's the proximity of safety, or other dangers? Who's to say that the process of escape doesn't damage the criminal? Mostly if people get truly cornered they already screwed up a number of times before getting in that situation in the first place. Not that it can't happen, but where's the sensible place to spend one's training time?

As Rob said, a lot of this becomes pretty apparent to folks with experience, but the elephant in the room is that most people who train in MA don't have that kind of experience, and they want to get applicable skills that will help them survive the sort of event that makes a person "experienced." Some of those not-experienced people may have spent years or decades in their art and need a reality check, and there are also many people who are looking for valid instruction but don't know what to look for. Every other McDojo in the world is run by a guy with made up credentials and a bunch of stories about life on da streetz, so it might be useful to have some corroborating info. It's also worth noting that what many people consider to be real experience is just a background in Monkey Dancing, which is a whole other discussion and not the same as self defense.

Leaving tone aside, I'm pretty sure there are a number of people on this board who could speak to each of the points in the article-- both for having seen the sort of behaviors in training that would get someone gutted, and also for how they address the situation effectively in their own training.

*This assumes our FMA guy has his knife handy. I don't know that the solo prison rush is all that common any more. I think in prisons now it's mostly group attacks where one or more guys will keep the victim from getting away while the stabber does their work.