Crocop's, He Jing-han's and Chen Xiaowang's Injuries

[wiesiek]

any kinds of sports is healthy if done on moderate level,
when you`re goin` for Olympic Gold, due to very heavy workouts - lot of things became "over capacity",
this is easy way to injury...
IMA isn`t exception, over do it, or do it not quite proper manner - and you`re damage yourself.

[Pandrews1982]

Exercise and movement if done correctly can help you heal but even the strongest can get injuries.

I recently saw this video and had mixed feelings about it, I'm glad the guy managed to regain his function but wonder whether he had any other medical advice. It's obvious from the video this guy is an exceptionally strong and still picked up the injury. In fact I'd say it's much more likely that if you're working out and moving and doing exercise that you are going to pick up injuries, it's par for the course.

[middleway]

In an interview on Robb Wolfs Podcast Coach Sommer from Gymnastic bodies said that injuries like the one above and the ones some of the 'Bar Stars' guys are now seeing (their top top guy tore his bicep in half) are due to people moving too quickly through fundamentals and not giving their connective tissues the necessary adaption time.

The reason is that alot of these guys have a focus on muscular strength and move through to heavy tasks too quickly without giving their fascia and connective tissues time to adapt. The connective tissue is unable to cope with the demands and is the point of failure.

Also he said that there is a recovery pyramid when it comes to injuries. Most serious injuries occur to the connective tissues and these take (if i remember correctly ... it may have been 10X) 5X the time to fully recover when compared to muscle. So if you pull a muscle and it takes 2 weeks to heal fully, a similar problem with connective tissue can take 10 Weeks to fully repair.

This whole connective tissue focus some here scoff at isn't just the domain of IP peeps and their 'fascia' 'connection' obsession. Gymnastic coaches like Coach Sommer have known for a long time that it should be one of the key developmental focuses to avoid injury and retain health.

thanks.

[KEND]

n experience with injuries, some weakness in left knee and ankle, most likely through 10 yrs of athletics[jumping and sprinting], no noticeable injuries from 20 yrs of rugby and a half century of MA.
There seems to be a general idea that IMA and IMA for health are different things, they are not. The only difference is that you don't practice 'jing' as much since even with perfect form there is stress on the internal muscles. the same principles apply, work all muscles, improve circulation, improve oxygen intake, maintain structure, calm the mind.
I improved the knee function by exercising the smaller muscles around the knee, they tend to weaken with age

[Overlord]

During this trip in Singapore, Strange is asking if the movements in CMA are natural or man made artificial.
He later explained why is it important to ZZ and gradually improving.
Take it easy.

Over

[Bao]

CXW's blaming knee injuries on slippery floors is IMHO quite ridiculous, unnecessary and unbecoming. Just saying.

...There seems to be a general idea that IMA and IMA for health are different things, they are not. The only difference is that you don't practice 'jing' as much since even with perfect form there is stress on the internal muscles. the same principles apply, work all muscles, improve circulation, improve oxygen intake, maintain structure, calm the mind.

I suppose that you mean that the stress on the body is the same, or they are equally as heavy on the body.

IMHO and IME, there is really a Hugh difference between health and martial IMA. The balance and how you use your body to gain leverage is very different if you understand function and application or not. If you push or strike in air, you use different muscles than if you actually strike and push against someone. Martial form practice means that you use the body, it's balance and structure in the same manner as you use it against an opponent. IME, martial form practice use different muscles, it need better stance and demands a more developed foundation. There is also a difference in sport and competition format as you don't need the support from the structure as you need in real application, but you exaggerate different movements for the sake of performance. These different practices will have different long term effect on the body because you use different muscles when you practice. But IMHO and IME, you can never achieve the same effect on deep muscles, the core and structure, with health or performance/sport practice as with real martial arts practice. I.e.: The martial arts practice is truly the health aspect of IMA.

[suckinlhbf]

If somebody can translate the Chinese article, it will be beneficial to many. Its so true.

[I-mon]

CXW's blaming knee injuries on slippery floors is IMHO quite ridiculous, unnecessary and unbecoming. Just saying.

Because a "TAI CHI MASTER" should never slip?

I stepped on some black ice a couple of months ago and damn nearly crippled myself for life in one split second.

[Bao]

CXW's blaming knee injuries on slippery floors is IMHO quite ridiculous, unnecessary and unbecoming. Just saying.

Because a "TAI CHI MASTER" should never slip?

I stepped on some black ice a couple of months ago and damn nearly crippled myself for life in one split second.

Why can't a master become hurt from his training? Many athletes gets sport related injuries. But a tai chi master can not?

If he has strong legs and strong posture, why would a slippery floor break his strong alignment? and if the training is good for his knees, they wouldn't be hurt so easily? And why did he practice on a slippery floor if he can't do it? There are many whys here...

Everyone knows that Chen style can be a knee killer. Blaming his problems on something like a slippery floor is silly and unecessary. Everyone with some knowledge of tai chi training knows how he got them.

[C.J.W.]

While the slippery floor may have been the last straw, CXW's Taiwanese students told me that he's been battling knee problems for years, and that they are the result of heavy fajin foot stomping he used to do in demonstrations in his younger days in order to impress onlookers and foreign audiences.

[I-mon]

Or, it could be genetics, and he might have had horrendously bad knees much earlier in his life if he had never done any tai chi. Cumulative degeneration is inherently complex and multi-factorial, and we can never work out the relative contributions of the different variables to the overall condition.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong - there's every chance that you're quite right - I'm just saying that we can't ever really be sure.

[shawnsegler]

As I said in the thread where this originally came up...if you train IMA athletically you are ALWAYS running the chance of injury...ALWAYS...its the nature of the beast. You want to minimize the chance of it happening but this whole idea I keep hearing about the assumption that if you don't come out of your IMA experience with anything but glowing superhealth you've somehow done something horribly against the idea of IMA and suddenly your methodology is suspect is ridiculous. If you use your body in rigorous training it doesn't matter how you train you are always in danger of hurting yourself...your mind might wander..whatever...and this over a lifetimes training where we start out not knowing the best ways to do things and where we learn..often by mistake. Anway, my first inclination when hearing people say these kind of things is to think that they probably don't train very hard.


Anyway, that's my 2c.

S

[middleway]

Its worth mentioning that being injured doesn't negate your badassery for me. Rickson Gracie has a bunch of bulging discs etc ... but is still a legendary badass.

The big difference i think here is that to the best of my knowledge Hi Jinghan and Chen Xiaowang where not professional fighters where injury can be due in no small part to the opponents action. I arm barred someone in comp a weekend or so ago and it tore his UCL in his elbow. The lock was so tight that a tiny shift of my hips, even though i was trying to be as gentle as possible caused this level of injury, but i released the instant he tapped. For competitive fighters this sort of thing can be out of their hands.

With that said the idea that any hard physical training will inevitably result in an injured body is one that people need to transform their outlook on. There is absolutely no reason that this should be the case ... provided you outlook is wide enough ....

[RobP2]

hands.

With that said the idea that any hard physical training will inevitably result in an injured body is one that people need to transform their outlook on. There is absolutely no reason that this should be the case ... provided you outlook is wide enough ....

Absolutely agree. Had this discussion a while back with a guy who said that bad injuries are just a by-product of hard training. My response was that bad injuries are a result of bad training...and most of that is down to bad movement. But he, like many others, has no interest in learning how to move well, because that is not "hard training"

[GrahamB]

Ido Portal totally did the 'live long and prosper' sign wrong. Just sayin'...