question for bagua guys (sinking dan tien)

[neijia_boxer]

there is a member here- Mark Li aka xingyidao , son of Li tai Liang. He teaches sinking of dan tien in xingyi, bagua and taiji and can demonstrate applications using sinking of dan tien. I was really impressed with his demonstration and methodology of this principle. No one had presented sinking of dan tien it that way before.

[mixjourneyman]

there is a member here- Mark Li aka xingyidao , son of Li tai Liang. He teaches sinking of dan tien in xingyi, bagua and taiji and can demonstrate applications using sinking of dan tien. I was really impressed with his demonstration and methodology of this principle. No one had presented sinking of dan tien it that way before.

That sounds really interesting. Can you elaborate on what he does?
And Mark, if your out there, I'd love to hear about the way you use this type of practice!

[Bao]

It allows me to get a lot more connection through my back and also makes balancing easier.

When you stabilize your stomach that way, you will obviously find it easier to relax your back and control the movements from it.

All of your movements, and your body as a whole need a center, every professional dancer knows this. If you work with these things, you will find yourself be able running faster and longer with less fatigue, you will strike harder, move smoother, and your body will be able to react faster.

I am very happy for you that you have discovered one of the most esssential and important things with our practice of the internal arts. Some people can practice their art(s) for twenty years or longer without getting this!

[D_Glenn]

In my short experience sinking it has more to do with a mental awareness of where your center is and trying to lower it with small corrections/visualization. The basic "stance" sinks your dan tien by itself.

Without a calm mind, without correct relaxation, without "stretch and twisting" and without opening the gua, I can not see how you can speak about a correct "basic 'stance'". Everything need to be put together.

I've never really heard of "sinking dantian", I've heard of sinking qi to the dantian, and the dantian should expand like a balloon in all directions.

Sinking qi and expansion are 2 good points. But IMO I would not even speak about expanding the "dantian". The dan tian is "just" an era which you can feel when you are calm, relax, together with an aligned structure. It can not do much by itself. I actually hate terms like "dan tian rotation". Dan tian does not rotate, it does not move or expand or sink, it is just the center of a bunch of muscles you can play with. But also, it is a point you can actually feel.

When you relax the chest and torso, gravity sinks it down. It will "rest" on the abdomen. It is natural to have a slight tension. But the feeling should be more on of fullness, strength. This feeling is great, nothing to be ignored or something you should try to get rid of. It will help you to fucus on breathing, feeling your abdominal breath. With a little biy more practice, the feeling of tension will be replaced with this feeling of strength.

edit: btw, sorry for mixing in this thread. I am no "bagua guy". I have practiced bagua for a total of about ten years. But I have totally left it out my curriculum for the time being. Maybe I will return to "it" eventually . . .

Expand is a misleading word, the best translation is 'fill the dantian'. It should feel 'full' and will press outward on all sides, or rather the result of filling it causes an expanding outward. Some of the IMA guys with the huge stomachs only 'fill' the dantian but never contract in from the outside with the belt meridian which will cause problems.

This is for martial practice, not to be confused with different qigongs that have different requirements for the dantian depending on the movement.

Basically if you compare 'filling the dantian'/'gathering qi in the dantian' to traditional Western boxing you will see it's the same: taking blows to the stomach, keeping weight down, keeping the breath down, and increasing power while rooting it down through the ground etc. It should be martial art class day one. It's not passive, it's actually very active use of the body but it will bring about a calm state with practice over time.

***
A taiji guy who doesn't believe in 'dantian rotation' I feel sorry for you. Maybe I was at the right place at the right time but I've met a few high level guys who let me put my hand on their stomach and feel it, I can't explain it, but very real none the less.

.

[neijia_boxer]

there is a member here- Mark Li aka xingyidao , son of Li tai Liang. He teaches sinking of dan tien in xingyi, bagua and taiji and can demonstrate applications using sinking of dan tien. I was really impressed with his demonstration and methodology of this principle. No one had presented sinking of dan tien it that way before.

That sounds really interesting. Can you elaborate on what he does?
And Mark, if your out there, I'd love to hear about the way you use this type of practice!

he would allow any type of attack to be absorded towards the dan tien. Catch the incoming force and draw it into the dan tien, neutralize and then apply your technique.

[Bao]

A taiji guy who doesn't believe in 'dantian rotation' I feel sorry for you. Maybe I was at the right place at the right time but I've met a few high level guys who let me put my hand on their stomach and feel it, I can't explain it, but very real none the less.

No, its not that I don't believe in "dantian rotation". I think that the definition of dantian sometimes goes completely into a nonsense by TJQ practitioners and that "dantian rotation" is something else than what people says. You can not "feel" another persons dan tian. What you feel is something else. Dan tian is a spot on the inside, not a acupuncture point or anything on the outside. Controlling the abdominal muscles around the dan tian is a good practice.

[mixjourneyman]

Nboxer: Sounds like a Dai style type principle of rotating the vertically. I honestly have no idea if we have that kind of practice in Cheng style.
It sounds really cool nonetheless.

[D_Glenn]

No, its not that I don't believe in "dantian rotation". I think that the definition of dantian sometimes goes completely into a nonsense by TJQ practitioners and that "dantian rotation" is something else than what people says. You can not "feel" another persons dan tian. What you feel is something else. Dan tian is a spot on the inside, not a acupuncture point or anything on the outside. Controlling the abdominal muscles around the dan tian is a good practice.

We don't need a lecture on what or where the dantian is, but by what you've written I can tell you've never felt it done by someone who can. All I can say is that the feeling has you jerking your hand away, saying to yourself WTF!, while the teacher is just smiling and shaking their head up and down, signifying that 'yes you felt it'.

[GrahamB]

No, its not that I don't believe in "dantian rotation". I think that the definition of dantian sometimes goes completely into a nonsense by TJQ practitioners and that "dantian rotation" is something else than what people says. You can not "feel" another persons dan tian. What you feel is something else. Dan tian is a spot on the inside, not a acupuncture point or anything on the outside. Controlling the abdominal muscles around the dan tian is a good practice.

We don't need a lecture on what or where the dantian is, but by what you've written I can tell you've never felt it done by someone who can. All I can say is that the feeling has you jerking your hand away, saying to yourself WTF!, while the teacher is just smiling and shaking their head up and down, signifying that 'yes you felt it'.

Sounds more like NLP, hypnosis, and mind control to me.

[shock and awe]

hernias???

[Chris McKinley]

My dantien twirls something fierce after a big burrito dinner.

[xinyidao2008]

there is a member here- Mark Li aka xingyidao , son of Li tai Liang. He teaches sinking of dan tien in xingyi, bagua and taiji and can demonstrate applications using sinking of dan tien. I was really impressed with his demonstration and methodology of this principle. No one had presented sinking of dan tien it that way before.

That sounds really interesting. Can you elaborate on what he does?
And Mark, if your out there, I'd love to hear about the way you use this type of practice!

In my opinion, there are two ways of sinking the dantian: physical and internal. From the internal aspect like what D_Glenn said, you lead the qi down to your dantian and fill it up. This leads to the expansion of the dantian from inside of your body and pushing out of your belly area (not the muscles at the stomach area). From the physical aspect, you tuck your hip, push in and down your dantian/stomach area, and contract your whole back to create an arch so that the force from the other person can be absorbed downward through this kind of circular motion. Physically sinking the dantian and creating this circular motion can also be used to close the cap between you and the other person.

This is just my opinion from our Xinyidao system that I do, other internal styles may have a different understanding and approach to sinking the dantian. So if you don't agree with what I said, just ignore it.

Mark Li

[johnrieber]

hey, mix...

i'm not a bagua guy. but it sounds like you're gearing up to roll down one of the really fun learning curves on the great TCIMA rollercoaster. my stage one of practical suggestions, for whatever they're worth:

going from the feeling that your dantien exercises/awareness are settling your hips. turn that progression around, and be a little more proactive.

open your hips/kua consciously as you're sinking into your form movements or qigong or whatever. two-legged horsey stances that set your shinbones perpendicular to the ground and turn your toes outward a little may help with that feeling. shift your weight back and forth between your feet a little bit--small shifts are fine, maybe best for this--and feel the connection between your legs, and try to get the feeling that your weight is like sand pouring back and forth through and hourglass or something. when you have that feeling of connection, check the position of your knees. your weight-shifting may have put them here or there. but now, have the intention of doing what they used to call 'rounding the crotch.' lightly press your knees outward (using the muscles on the inside of your thighs) until your knees are directly over your feet. and as this happens, exhale, and do the dantien-sinking thing you've been doing while you do whatever it is you do to round your arms and bring them into your form's starting position.

you've just made a cradle for your dantien, basically. now you're settling your dantien into it.

step two: now relax and do your form while keeping your primary kinetic awareness in your dantien and your waist, instead of your feet or your hands. don't move your feet or your hands independently. feel out the way that movement originating from your dantien and flywheeling through your waist can shift or gear movement outward to your hips and spine and shoulders, and move your hands and feet for you. you'll probably wind up doing something that looks like a very condensed yang or hao form style of movement that feels as though it's driven by the cycles of your breathing.

step three: when you have a good handle on that, work on feeling the variations in the way that your energy transfer from the dantien (driven by your breathing) and waist can develop a spiralling or twisting expression as you involve the relaxed hips and spine and shoulders, and allow your arms to have some rotational movement. take it slow and feel it out, and don't worry too much about whether or not your hands are winding up where you want them to be.

do that until you start to feel a little frustrated, and wonder how the hell you manage to brush your teeth and tie your shoes, etc, and then forget it. repeat step one, and then do your form as usual. after a little while, your form as usual will start feeling like something else.

good luck. be stubborn, and have fun.

[mixjourneyman]

Nimen, Mark: Thanks, both posts were really cool.
Mark, it actually sounds very similar to what I experienced. The dan tien gets pushed down a little bit and the back opens up more. I was surprised by it because I thought my back was already fairly open, but it kicked it up a notch.
Thanks again guys!

[D_Glenn]

Sounds more like NLP, hypnosis, and mind control to me.

Ah yes, too much hypnotoad that day.



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