question for bagua guys (sinking dan tien)

[meeks]

well apart from some guys arguing the semantics of 'how' you said things I'd say you're doing the right thing. Focus on the physical aspect of rooting (lowering dan tian) and the energetic aspect will follow. The opposite is not always the same. If you think about qi (directing it) it's not real. Qi is the natural effect of your actions and should not be the determination of your actions.

[Bao]

Qi is the natural effect of your actions and should not be the determination of your actions.

QFT

[mixjourneyman]

well apart from some guys arguing the semantics of 'how' you said things I'd say you're doing the right thing. Focus on the physical aspect of rooting (lowering dan tian) and the energetic aspect will follow. The opposite is not always the same. If you think about qi (directing it) it's not real. Qi is the natural effect of your actions and should not be the determination of your actions.

Hey Meeks, thanks for the advice.

[tiltpoint]

hey, mix...

i'm not a bagua guy. but it sounds like you're gearing up to roll down one of the really fun learning curves on the great TCIMA rollercoaster. my stage one of practical suggestions, for whatever they're worth:

going from the feeling that your dantien exercises/awareness are settling your hips. turn that progression around, and be a little more proactive.

open your hips/kua consciously as you're sinking into your form movements or qigong or whatever. two-legged horsey stances that set your shinbones perpendicular to the ground and turn your toes outward a little may help with that feeling. shift your weight back and forth between your feet a little bit--small shifts are fine, maybe best for this--and feel the connection between your legs, and try to get the feeling that your weight is like sand pouring back and forth through and hourglass or something. when you have that feeling of connection, check the position of your knees. your weight-shifting may have put them here or there. but now, have the intention of doing what they used to call 'rounding the crotch.' lightly press your knees outward (using the muscles on the inside of your thighs) until your knees are directly over your feet. and as this happens, exhale, and do the dantien-sinking thing you've been doing while you do whatever it is you do to round your arms and bring them into your form's starting position.

you've just made a cradle for your dantien, basically. now you're settling your dantien into it.

step two: now relax and do your form while keeping your primary kinetic awareness in your dantien and your waist, instead of your feet or your hands. don't move your feet or your hands independently. feel out the way that movement originating from your dantien and flywheeling through your waist can shift or gear movement outward to your hips and spine and shoulders, and move your hands and feet for you. you'll probably wind up doing something that looks like a very condensed yang or hao form style of movement that feels as though it's driven by the cycles of your breathing.

step three: when you have a good handle on that, work on feeling the variations in the way that your energy transfer from the dantien (driven by your breathing) and waist can develop a spiralling or twisting expression as you involve the relaxed hips and spine and shoulders, and allow your arms to have some rotational movement. take it slow and feel it out, and don't worry too much about whether or not your hands are winding up where you want them to be.

do that until you start to feel a little frustrated, and wonder how the hell you manage to brush your teeth and tie your shoes, etc, and then forget it. repeat step one, and then do your form as usual. after a little while, your form as usual will start feeling like something else.

good luck. be stubborn, and have fun.

just repeating in case you missed it...

one thing that helped me even more is to think or your balls as being bowling balls... I know it sounds like a joke, but it is one of the best lessons I was ever taught.

[bold]with this one discovery now you are actually doing an internal art.[/bold] don't worry about moving the dantien for a while, the sinking is enough to keep you busy for a while. and it seems amusing to me how many people on this board, people I respect, don't believe this is possible.

[Jake]

one thing that helped me even more is to think or your balls as being bowling balls... I know it sounds like a joke, but it is one of the best lessons I was ever taught.

[bold]with this one discovery now you are actually doing an internal art.[/bold] don't worry about moving the dantien for a while, the sinking is enough to keep you busy for a while. and it seems amusing to me how many people on this board, people I respect, don't believe this is possible.

OLD NEWS....

Bon Scott talked about that like what.... 30 years or so ago??

[Walk the Torque]

I think I learned how to sink my dan tien today and I'm just looking for advice from people who already know how to do this.
I want to know if I'm doing it right.
Here are the feelings associated with it:
I let my dan tien feel heavy.
It pushed my hips down and forced me to sit more.
My back became much more open and I could feel the power in my back much more.

Things I think were wrong: It made my abdomen tighten up a bit, but I think that it will get more relaxed as my ability to sink the dan tien increases.

If any of you have experience with this, please feel free to share and give advice.

Many thanks.

Hi Mix,
Look obviously this is not the end of the line, but it is a milestone. Congrats!

The way I look at it is that the more relaxed/sunk you are in this area the more you're likely to feel and be able to operate from there. When I started originating my movements from the centre it was quite sporadic; but as time went by and I began to settle into it, I began to experience a greater success in pretty much all areas of my game.

I think getting in touch with your Dan Tien is like grabbing hold of a sling shot. Once you can feel its dimensions, you can then start to direct the ball with greater accuracy and oomph!

It is a good measure as to my general clarity. I feel extremely comfortable when coming from the centre. I use it playing table tennis, swimming, talking to clients etc. I think the term comfortable carries a lot of weight here; It allows the plumming to conduct, if you get my drift.

What I will say though, is that the heavy sensations you describe, however valid, are worth using as a contrast to a lighter and more energetic state. As I see it, its all part of the gross and fine continuum. Heavy is great for discovery of a given body part or movement; but then comes how to cut down extrainious actions and thereby produce lighter and more efficient movement. This leads to lighter sensations. Then, the resultant increase in transmitted force can appear relatively heavy; but then when we learn to handle this greater generation of force, with finer movement/yet more relaxation and more pin point intent, then we reach a lighter feel once again.

One thing I have found interesting is using the dantien to direct the jin through the legs and arms simultaniously, for kicks, sweeps etc. Apart from pipping up the energy level of the dantein it also gives great overall balance.

All the best

Conn

[Daniel]

Hey Mix. Congrats. Good work. Keep it up.

Added info, not necessarily for you, just a general summing up from my experiences and teachers to date. Maybe it might be useful:

It usually takes a couple of years of practice to build up enough qi in your system that you actually can feel the LDT. These years should be focused more on feeling physical tissue, relaxing it, softening it, building up rooting and connections and all that jazz. Beginners should never focus on qi or LDT straight off the bat.

Once you can feel the LDT, just let your mind rest there. In the beginning you usually can´t feel it directly, which is fine: just let your mind rest in the general area, easy and soft. This will integrate the process faster with your system and your mind. Over time you will feel the LDT clearer and clearer. There´s no rush; you will have it until the day you die.

Once you can feel it, allow the area to soften. Having hard focus on energy makes it higher risk that you get into trouble down the line.

Let your LDT settle over a long time, preferably a year or more. If you want to focus only on this, it can be done very well in simple sitting practice (core training in Chan and Daoism, and also if you are freezing your ass of while standing/lying around a lot in the cold or rain).

Once it´s settled, you start putting the focus more towards how you can integrate it with your single movement-practices and forms. Just doing the movements and keeping your mind in that area will change a lot of your practice and power even though you are not doing it consciously. You are now doing the movements from your LDT. Over the years this can at times translate into the very strange experience of seeing through the LDT instead of your eyes, or both together. This goes more into Daoist practices in depth, but can happen in the IMA too.

As part of the physical spectrum, you slowly start learning to release and relax around your mingmen, which is the paired link of the LDT, and which is necessary to stabilize your lower back and balance the work of the LDT. Other physical techniques include softening the kua, the link to the knee-ligaments, and the three directions of the kua.

This goes into linking your LDT to the five bows, first to your feet, then hands, etc. No real bows yet, just a calm link that is integrated into the practice.

Step after this, actual work with filling the LDT, which there are precise techniques for. Then after that, how to move it. This is - it seems - safest and best done linking it to movement first, then mind later, and after that opposite force with the movement. The mind-work has five basic internal circles which you do over several years, and after that just freely depending on what power-vector you have.

Once you get to the level of moving it, it is important to always finish practice with allowing your LDT to stabilize and settle again.

During the training you start to actually do strikes with your LDT, even before you learn to focus it. This increases striking-power by a factor of five or more.

The process outlined here isn´t set in stone, but should be tailored by the teacher for the student. The whole list probably covers fifteen years of practice altogether if it´s to be done safely.

Also, re Daoist practice, after those fifteen years it is important to avoid getting locked at the LDT. All three DT´s should be balanced. Many martial artists lock themselves into just physical power. I have hunch - hunch only, since I´m not on that level by even with a longshot, a good single malt and some help from a busty blonde- that getting locked into LDT might also prevent the practitioner from moving through mingjing onwards to anjing and huajing, but this is just a guess.

(...maybe there is an EF-member out there with genuine huajing who might condescend to giving us a clue... )

Don´t know if that´s helpful, but there you go. You sound like you´re doing well, though, Mix.

D.


Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[mixjourneyman]

There is some real awesomeness going on in this thread now.

Tilt, walktt, Daniel: All good stuff guys, thanks very much for the advice and summary.