Root vs center?

[Bao]

A few meetings lately have made me thinking about my own flaws and gaps. (Yeah, I have a lot of those )
One of the things I am trying to understand better is the relationship between root/ground and the center. My teachers focused much on rooting, but less on developing a strong center. And I have never read anything in depth about the relationship between this parts. I find it strange. Is it so that some arts tend to focus more on one area and less on the other?

What do you focus on? What is more important for you - a strong root or a strong center?
How do you think when you attack? Attack the middle or the base?

An illustration on how I think:

If there’s a pressure on a connected arm, or an arm drag against it, how good and strong your root and center are, the body structure will be affected differently. A strong center with a strong base, will keep the whole body in place. A weak center but strong root will divide the body. A strong center but weak root will keep the body together, but the balance will be lost.

What do you think about this? Is it something you can use in your own art? How?

Just a few more thoughts here in my blog. https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... he-center/ Not much though. I've posted the most essential part here. But I think I will go back to it edit or make a new post on the same subject. You know, when you practice with some people, things work well. When you practice with others, sometimes nothing works. I believe that it has much to do with the fact that there are many different body types and different ways that people develop their own body. So how do you adapt your stuff to different types of opponent or in different situations? There must be tons of things that could be said about this subject.

[GrahamB]

I find it a bit hard to understand what you are saying, but I think I know.

I'd say the premise is wrong - it's not either/or - if you are arm dragged then I prefer to think of it as my body is 'connected' (it's a bad term, because your arm is connected to you no matter what), but the connection (by which I mean more than normal everyday connection) is soft, not hard and rigid - it is flexible - it has some give, so you can give a little bit, then take up the slack as you move in to them. Like that video John Wang posted of Kao in response to an arm drag.

[Bao]

I find it a bit hard to understand what you are saying, but I think I know.

That's understandable. I haven't really verbalized my thoughts properly for myself yet.

I'd say the premise is wrong - it's not either/or - if you are arm dragged then I prefer to think of it as my body is 'connected' (it's a bad term, because your arm is connected to you no matter what), but the connection (by which I mean more than normal everyday connection) is soft, not hard and rigid - it is flexible - it has some give, so you can give a little bit, then take up the slack as you move in to them. Like that video John Wang posted of Kao in response to an arm drag.

I understand what you mean, but I don't think so. An unecessary distinction from a different POV maybe, but I don't think that it's wrong. The base is the strength of your balance. The center is the middle is what that connects the top and bottom halves of your body. If someone goes in for a throw at you, do you bend at the spine or try to keep your spine straight? Do sink your weight? How you respond by the use of your center or your root will affect his opportunities to succeed, it will give yourself different opportunities to counter and give him different possibilities to follow up and change. Some techniques really demand that your opponent has a weak center and that you can easily bend his waist/spine. For other techniques, you need to take his root before you do anything else. So how you understand the center and base and if you know to distuinguish them can help you to understand how to read your opponent as well as how to counter different types of attacks.

[GrahamB]

Well, if I was a chair, then yes, but I'm not a chair. I have joints that can open and close - and if pulled, open just enough to 'give' without becoming disconnected, not too disconnected so that I can reorganise myself.

Edit: Obviously, I would normally just bounce people away at first contact with my amazing internal power. However, back in the real world....

[Bao]

Well, if I was a chair, then yes, but I'm not a chair. I have joints that can open and close - and if pulled, open just enough to 'give' without becoming disconnected, not too disconnected so that I can reorganise myself.

Then do you believe in developing a strong center or a strong root, or maybe both?
... I guess that won't help you connect or disconnect, so ...

Obviously, I would normally just bounce people away at first contact with my amazing internal power. However, back in the real world...

Even if you could, I think people would react differently depending on how well they understand and how well they have developed root and center. When people practice though, the attacker seem to not use any of these parts. But in the real world a person can have both root and center. Or being good at disconnect and connect as well of course.

[GrahamB]

What is a 'centre'?

What is a 'root'?

By which I mean, what do you mean by them?

[wiesiek]

if I may:
if the center is the name , used here for more than DT only -it has the same meaning -root. - me thinkin`

..." If someone goes in for a throw at you, do you bend at the spine or try to keep your spine straight? ..."

it all depends of the throw/action, ....Bao,

[amor]

some good pointers there to think about in the OP, thanks Bao. This might sound somewhat non-specific but I would say the root without center doesn't allow one to be in a continuous process of change.

[windwalker]

what people call things and what they mean is not always the same.

a root is one connection point between 2 ends, the center can be any point along this or even out side it.

The perceived differences are between how some generate power. ie using the frame or "energy"
"A wave transports its energy without transporting matter" most use a frame to move a frame.

root vs center
One always has both whether they understand this or not.
If they'r not they can and will be exploited by those who do.

with central equilibrium, any and all points can act as center

What do you think about this? Is it something you can use in your own art? How?

I think your might be confused as to having a physical fixed axes,

this teacher talks a a little bit covering some of the questions here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orav8ez3Hc8

1:41 "what is a center?"

[Bao]

What is a 'centre'?

What is a 'root'?

By which I mean, what do you mean by them?

I only mean the physical center, but developed and with awareness of it. Hara if you wish to name it. Some people confuse it with the DT. You have a drawing in the blog post if you want to understand more in detail how I see it.

With root I mean developed leg strength. Developed in that IMA way. In the "Sink the weight down to the foot way".

If you have great rooting skills, you should be quite immobile, inmovable. If you have a developed center all your movements should have better strength and you should be able to balance and relax the upper body better.

[Bao]

if I may:
if the center is the name , used here for more than DT only -it has the same meaning -root.

Dantian is the absolute center. I refer to a bigger area that rests on the gua and has it's top by the middle dantian/solar plexus area. It incorporates the lower spine as well. It's the whole piece that connects the the lower body with the upper body. Different people tend to react differently on applications if they have a weak center or a strong center, or if they are aware of this area or not. The dantian alone does not give the same stability or connection between the upper and lower.

[GrahamB]

Bao: Hmmm.. you seem to be talking about making parts of your body physically stronger? To me root would mean the ability to sink your weight internally - achieved by relaxing down and also using the spring back from the earth to relax 'up'. There are two main powers acting on the body - the pull of gravity and the push back up off the earth (heaven and earth) - in IMA you (traditionally) want to achieve heaven, man and earth unity - where man - i.e. you - is balanced between heaven and earth - this would give you a centre and a root. The ability to maintain that unity when forces of pushing and pulling are applied to the 'body work' of the internal arts.

[Bao]

the center can be any point along this or even out side it.

Of course. But I think it's quite obvious that I am only speaking about the physical center of the body and nothing else.

I think your might be confused as to having a physical fixed axes,

this teacher talks a a little bit covering some of the questions here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orav8ez3Hc8

1:41 "what is a center?"

Confused? I believe that I am very specific about what center I speak about. But I think that you want to direct the conversation in another direction and use the lable for something else. That's fine with me, but if we are speaking about different things. You will have to to excuse me, but I will only discuss the physical, measurable area of the body and the physical use of it. Good vid though.

[Bao]

Bao: Hmmm.. you seem to be talking about making parts of your body physically stronger? To me root would mean the ability to sink your weight internally - achieved by relaxing down and also using the spring back from the earth to relax 'up'. There are two main powers acting on the body - the pull of gravity and the push back up off the earth (heaven and earth) - in IMA you (traditionally) want to achieve heaven, man and earth unity - where man - i.e. you - is balanced between heaven and earth - this would give you a centre and a root. The ability to maintain that unity when forces of pushing and pulling are applied to the 'body work' of the internal arts.

If you relax and sink internally, it will still affect the muscles. Long term of a different or other kind of muscle work will build up a certain muscle strength. Any XY practitioner would understand what I mean. Relaxing through pain is what builds strength through Santi practice. It means that you sink internally, but it also means that by relaxing through the pain, you are starting to use and develop deeper core muscles that you usually do not use. There's always a physical aspect and implication of internal practice.

[GrahamB]

I think you're right about the legs - people in BJJ are always commenting on how strong my legs are. When I tell them it's from Tai Chi they don't believe me