DEER type of the breathing ?

[allen2saint]

Vagabond,

I did not mean for my post to be interpreted as a wholesale trashing of all IMA's health benefits. Let me be more clear....When in grad school a few years ago, I had the good fortune of having access to all the databases at the university. In my spare time, I looked at a lot of these studies about Qigong and Tai Chi as therapy. I looked at data from China, the US, all over the world. And what I found( and has been also corroborated here) is that most of the studies have a very small number of participants and that the results are inconclusive, or vague. There is no conclusive evidence from scientific research that any of these practices "cure" anything. I am sure exercise, deep breathing, etc, have some small impact on illness, but there is no conclusive evidence out there to support all these "this is a cancer curing qigong" etc. claims.

Side note, I worked in a huge urban hospital and I met many, many patients who came in having tried to depend on these types of things and they were actually ashamed that they didn't work, as if it was their fault, and they ended up coming in with severe illnesses, sometimes dying, with these failed remedies.

I am not dismissing them entirely, but that was my finding and I think its important to say, because I see a lot of claims, even today, about "this is master so and so's cancer cure qigong" or "I've helped a lot of people with this tai chi exercise" when its all anecdotal and possibly wrong. I've seen disease kill a lot of people, including great IMA masters.

[wayne hansen]

Nowhere near the number western medicine has

[taiwandeutscher]

Curing cancer with Qigong might be a bit exaggerated, true, and also many Chinese studies do not have a real scientific level in the western sense and standard, but there is a ton of evidence (and western scientific studies), that all those exercises do positively influence peoples' health. Surely, you can find a lot of those studies online!

[allen2saint]

I approached reviewing the research really more as "the believer" looking for all the proofs I "knew" were out there. And I was pretty disappointed to see that the research in the scientific and medical journals had very small test groups and did not come to definitive conclusions. With Chinese herbs, they did. There was real evidence there. But the Qigong research is not very strong and the results were never definitive for healing disease.

I am not saying that the real Qigong masters would submit themselves to research anyway, knowing how CIMA is as a whole, culturally, what with no one wanting to share their secrets with even their loyal students, but what has actually been published is not supportive.

I just am cautious from what I saw in hospitals and I really take exception to all these IMA teachers and their ilk who boast the health benefits, like straight up calling something a "( fill in disease here) curing qigong," when there's no evidence. Do it if you enjoy it and if it eases your mind, but depending on it? I just haven't seen the proof. People will remember the one person who was "cured" or went into remission, for any of a thousand reasons, and will forget the other hundred whose disease progress was not slowed and died anyway. That's just people.

And as far as Western medicine, I think it gets a pretty and rap. Their knowledge is not complete either and they still are struggling with unknowns, but I worked in Neuro ICU, Cardiac ICU, ER and Psych and I've seen a lot of people helped and healed. Occasionally hindered or killed, sometimes by error, but I'd compare those numbers with any Chinese doc. Practitioners are what they are. Some are great and some are not. But I'd put my life in the hands of a good Western doc in a heartbeat.

[taiwandeutscher]

Only for acute problems, never for chronic diseases.

[taiwandeutscher]

double post

[yeniseri]

I approached reviewing the research really more as "the believer" looking for all the proofs I "knew" were out there. And I was pretty disappointed to see that the research in the scientific and medical journals had very small test groups and did not come to definitive conclusions. With Chinese herbs, they did. There was real evidence there. But the Qigong research is not very strong and the results were never definitive for healing disease.

I am not saying that the real Qigong masters would submit themselves to research anyway, knowing how CIMA is as a whole, culturally, what with no one wanting to share their secrets with even their loyal students, but what has actually been published is not supportive.

I just am cautious from what I saw in hospitals and I really take exception to all these IMA teachers and their ilk who boast the health benefits, like straight up calling something a "( fill in disease here) curing qigong," when there's no evidence. Do it if you enjoy it and if it eases your mind, but depending on it? I just haven't seen the proof. People will remember the one person who was "cured" or went into remission, for any of a thousand reasons, and will forget the other hundred whose disease progress was not slowed and died anyway. That's just people.

And as far as Western medicine, I think it gets a pretty and rap. Their knowledge is not complete either and they still are struggling with unknowns, but I worked in Neuro ICU, Cardiac ICU, ER and Psych and I've seen a lot of people helped and healed. Occasionally hindered or killed, sometimes by error, but I'd compare those numbers with any Chinese doc. Practitioners are what they are. Some are great and some are not. But I'd put my life in the hands of a good Western doc in a heartbeat.

A great point! I gave a workshop about qigong some years ago but I made sure to bring up the story of Guo Lin and her methods to the extent that there were at least 5 interventions along the way that got in the way or provided some benefit (still unknown???) that allowed her to survive.

1. Surgery: she had at least 3 (they vary according to sources!!!) that provided some degree of QOL (excisions of cancer(s)
2. Chemotherapy
3. Diet
4. Qigong (her method along with changes she made per individual characteristic and extent of disease of others)
5. Her Emotional/psychological health and its extent with previous interventions or not

All 5 worked to various degrees until the benefits of the other (which one and extent thereof) was exhausted. Very difficult to say but qigong did provide a positive outcome (again extent unknown!!!) but one may count survival as being an endpoint. 5 interventions each having a 20% factor in increasing or decreasing survival rate amongst survivors.

Hypothesis question: Can qigong cure cancer? Too many variable to respond but I say no.
here's why.....what do we really mean by this according to the 3 defects of ourselves..we know the meaning, understand the word and put them together to come up with a reasonable response
1. Does this mean we teach qigong to a person with cancer and 3 months later, he does not have the disease?
2. Do we teach someone with a family history of cancer that does not have it and when he learns qigong, he will not develop cancer.

What do we really mean when we say this stuff? Just sayin'

[Michael]

........

[wiesiek]

yes, Qigong power shows up in prevention ,
and
guys,
worth to mention, this thread is about menstruation cycle/deer breathing , can be stretched to the cyclic nature in the live/practise , eventually .
but,
considering the cancer is out of blue shot here , really .

[Michael]

but,
considering the cancer is out of blue shot here , really .

I guess I should have added a smiley.

[wiesiek]

well,
you know M., famous contemporary general - Taoist from the Taiwan /unable to recall his name now/ died in age 98 .
It was the cancer,
the rumor was, between immortals, that pollution there, etc. ...
but
if you ask me 98 is the quite nice age to jump into space,
maybe
not so important - why,
more - how.

[allen2saint]

No offense, weisek, but this anecdote is exactly what I am talking about. You've placed your faith in some third hand story and you don't even know the guy's name.

There was some real thoughtful discussion on this board a while back about the whole "I was weak, then I took ( fill in martial art of choice) and became strong, vital, etc" thing and how it was connected to the Chinese response to the whole "sick men of Asia" image. That all these stories about how this weak, sick person finds some master and his health and vitality are restored and augmented through IMA were really a sham.

I work in a nursing home now and I have seen amazing things accomplished with the PT people. The weak do indeed get stronger and more vital, but when every guy on every corner has the same miraculous story, anyone who's got a brain should start wondering why, IMO.

[wiesiek]

c`mon Allen,
read my lips,
I simply don`t remember his name and precisely citing it here is not important factor - by any means for the topic,
AND
I`m NOT supporting my words here, on this very forum
by "in some third hand story " or party gossips
There is, always, solid literature and/or personal experience behind me,
ALWAYS
so
again, - c`mon A,
stores - yes, -are for building faith,
in
reality ,
Why we have shallow pound of the cases ? -
not to many are capable to go thru the 2-4 everyday workout , strict diet etc,
It doesn`t depends of you " like it or not ":
way of the Tao is not for everyone...

[D_Glenn]

So she wants to Zhan Chilong so that she can save/conserve the Jing (Polyamines) that are being lost in the menstrual blood.

A 16 year old women has vastly more polyamines in her blood than a 43 year old women. So naturally she isn't really losing that much Jing once a month anymore.

The practices of Zhan Chilong are guidelines for young women, so at 43 she would have to probably spend twice the amount of time, everyday, to get her prolactin level up high enough to stop it. BUT the sheer amount of time and effort that physical regimen takes will be using up more Jing, Qi, and Shen, then the amount of Jing she will be conserving by not menstruating for a couple or few months.

At 43 the amount of Polyamines gained is not equal, or even close to the amount she will have to spend to get it.

There's a video of Chuo Jiao Men and in it is some women doing a Zhan Zhuang practice and the movement pattern to get into and out of it. That ZZ is great for women and for getting movement in the Chong meridian that tends to get obstructed and cause pain.

.

[wayne hansen]

Do you have a link to this video