Chen Tai Chi Training

[shoebox55]

Please I'm interested in learning about the training involved in Chen Tai Chi, particularly taught by Chen Xiao Wang, Chen Ziqiang, Chen Bing, etc.

At any point of the training do students face full speed (not necessarily full contact) AND spontaneous attacks from a partner/teacher? Not free push hands. Not sport boxing.

Please can you provide a video if so.

[willie]

Please I'm interested in learning about the training involved in Chen Tai Chi, particularly taught by Chen Xiao Wang, Chen Ziqiang, Chen Bing, etc.

At any point of the training do students face full speed (not necessarily full contact) AND spontaneous attacks from a partner/teacher? Not free push hands. Not sport boxing.

Please can you provide a video if so.

There are sparring video's on the net already, Those video's are not showing what is really going on.
The art is much more then publicly known. You will see the push hands, grappling, semi-sparring.

People add sport boxing because they would like to compete in other disciplines.

It is very hard to find the original text.
I can tell you truthfully it is extremely powerful and needs no other discipline other then a solid ground game.

[charles]

The vast majority of practitioners of Taijiquan, regardless of style or sub-style, do not have effective fighting skills as their primary goal. There are a small number of practitioners in each of the major styles who have effective fighting skills. Most do not. Most do not train to achieve those skills.

If your interest is in studying Taijiquan to obtain effective fighting skills, be prepared to look long and hard - or be very lucky - to find a teacher who has those skills. You'll look longer and harder to find one that can effectively teach those skills and actually cares whether or not you learn them. Then expect to spend 4 or more hours per day practicing what you are taught in order to develop those skills: it is a way of living, not a hobby. Expect to sustain at least minor injuries along the way.

If your interest is specifically in Taijiquan, be aware that there are many people with fighting abilities who claim that what they do and teach is Taijiquan. Rarely is that true. That may or may not matter to you.

With 20/20 hindsight, gained over two decades of Taiji practice, my suggestion is to chase the skills/abilities/results you want to obtain and forget about learning a specific martial "style" or following a specific "lineage". Follow the skills, not the style or lineage.

No doubt, not the answer you are wanting.

[wayne hansen]

I agree with the last part of what Charles says
Don't chase styles chase outcomes
Before I reply I tend to check the posters bio
Shoebox I find it strange you train cmc and your favorite martial artist is Chen Xaio Wang
I can't think of two more distant points in the tai chi landscape
Just wondered is there no one in the cmc linage who fills this void

[shoebox55]

HI, Thanks for the response so far. I don't want to detract from the main question in this thread. I trained CMC Taijiquan but I don't any more. My teacher is really good he insisted on learning the principles. I wouldn't mess with him . I think Chen Xiao Wang's punch is unbelievable and I am contemplating shifting towards Chen style.

It would be nice to see a video of the Chen style techniques being applied against an unpredictable partner attacking at full speed. Does that exist?

Thanks

[willie]

HI, Thanks for the response so far. I don't want to detract from the main question in this thread. I trained CMC Taijiquan but I don't any more. My teacher is really good he insisted on learning the principles. I wouldn't mess with him . I think Chen Xiao Wang's punch is unbelievable and I am contemplating shifting towards Chen style.

It would be nice to see a video of the Chen style techniques being applied against an unpredictable partner attacking at full speed. Does that exist?

Thanks

No video will provide the answer's to the questions that you asked.
You have to get out there one on one with a master and feel the skills.

You said you wouldn't mess with your teacher so maybe just stay where you are.

[nicklinjm]

As someone living in China who used to practice Chen style (although I no longer actively practice it), I would say that the kind of unrehearsed sparring shoebox is talking about is very very rare amongst Chen taiji schools in China.

If you are intent on looking for this kind of practice in Chen style, then the only people I can think of right now might be Li Zhujun (Hong Junsheng's practical method, located in Heze in Shandong) or Chen Erhu (village style, Wang Xi'an's disciple).

A lot of people get attracted to the 'flashy' fajin of Chen style (myself included) - but given that the OP already has a base in CMC taichi, why not consider studying with Malaysian CMC style masters such as Lau Kim Hong, Lee Bei Lei etc, who have a very good reputation for fighting skills?

Just my .02,

[MaartenSFS]

Also, as someone living in China who used to practise Chen style (although I merged it into other styles that I train), I would say that that kind of free sparring is very, very rare amongst most schools in China, unfortunately.

Other than Chen, there are other styles with explosive Fajin, such as Xinyiliuhequan and some Baguazhang that I have seen. Frankly, most of the Chen and other arts I've seen out there are shite. Their Fajin is just an empty spaz, devoid of martial application. Then, even if they have developed a proper Fajin, can they even use it in combat??

That being said, I have met a number of proper masters than have explosive Fajin (but don't necessarily use it in fighting, as it's more Anjin), can fight and lead small groups of disciples that also train to fight. One absolutely must have some sort of connection to get into a group like that or spend years wandering around like I did.. Once in, it's definitely worth it! Then the real work begins.

If your plan was to just see a video and then page through your phone book, find a school and think that that's what you'll be learning, you are embarking on a long and pathetic road, my friend... Even if you come out to China for a month or two every year and study from some famous master, you'll just add expensive to the list.

I recommend that you find a teacher that has the fighting skills that you want, whether in China or abroad, and learn whatever style they are teaching. If you do decide to come to China I know of some unknown teachers that teach Chen, but they also cross-trained in dozens of other styles, as most that can actually fight are wont to do. Good luck on your journey.

[windwalker]

The first two teachers to bring Cheng style Tai Chi to the region were Huang Hsing Hsien and Yue Shu Ting who had both come from China via Taiwan. In pro-Communist China they had both served as Guomindang officials and it was Yue who took Huang to meet Cheng Man Ching in Taiwan.

Both Yue and Huang had originally studied Shaolin arts and owed their faith in Tai Chi to having been bested by Cheng in challenges, Huang was the first to arrive and he settled in Singapore, while Yue arriving a year later, started teaching in Penang in the north. Both teachers established their reputation not by extolling the health benefits of the art, nor by engaging in intellectual discussion, but by convincing the local martial artists that Tai Chi was a viable and effective art. It is worth noting that nearly all of Yue's leading students came from a background in other arts and all gave them up to practise Tai Chi.

http://www.zhong-ding.com/index.php/art ... -east-asia

If your still interested in the 37 step ZMC style this teacher and school has many branches and seems to have
a well rounded method of teaching.

Many of today's master teachers who started training in those early days recount how hard the training was. Master Lee Bei Lei tells how at the end of a day's training he was so stiff that he could not climb the stairs to his room. Master Lau Kim Hong tells how his teacher Lu Tong Bao would 'spar' with his students, inviting them to attack him One at a time, whereupon he would punch, kick and throw them to the ground. In these sessions students would suffer strains, sprains and even broken bones. Thus it was from the time of its arrival in the region, Cheng style was established as an effective fighting art fit to rival the arts already popular.

A tradition was also established of hard, physical training. The curriculum taught by those early teachers consisted of form, applications and pushing hands. Weapons were also taught. Then after Cheng's visit in 1958, when he taught a set of qigong exercises designed to develop internal strength, these too became an important part of the syllabus.

Master Lau Kim Hong tells how his teacher Lu Tong Bao would 'spar' with his students, inviting them to attack him One at a time, whereupon he would punch, kick and throw them to the ground. In these sessions students would suffer strains, sprains and even broken bones.

sounds like what your looking for

good luck on your journey

[Taste of Death]

Many of today's master teachers who started training in those early days recount how hard the training was. Master Lee Bei Lei tells how at the end of a day's training he was so stiff that he could not climb the stairs to his room. Master Lau Kim Hong tells how his teacher Lu Tong Bao would 'spar' with his students, inviting them to attack him One at a time, whereupon he would punch, kick and throw them to the ground. In these sessions students would suffer strains, sprains and even broken bones. Thus it was from the time of its arrival in the region, Cheng style was established as an effective fighting art fit to rival the arts already popular.

A tradition was also established of hard, physical training. The curriculum taught by those early teachers consisted of form, applications and pushing hands. Weapons were also taught. Then after Cheng's visit in 1958, when he taught a set of qigong exercises designed to develop internal strength, these too became an important part of the syllabus.

Master Lau Kim Hong tells how his teacher Lu Tong Bao would 'spar' with his students, inviting them to attack him One at a time, whereupon he would punch, kick and throw them to the ground. In these sessions students would suffer strains, sprains and even broken bones.

sounds like what your looking for

good luck on your journey

Sounds like the crossfit approach. Overwork a bunch of unskilled people and make them think they are training the right way because they are exhausted while the teacher drinks tea. Throwing people around isn't teaching. It's demonstrating (showing off).

[wayne hansen]

You don't know what you are talking about taste
You are talking about my lineage
Both if yap's students chock seng kam and Lou tong bao were tested in real combat many times
Both them and their students were tested against all comers and that is how they promoted the art

[windwalker]

Many of today's master teachers who started training in those early days recount how hard the training was. Master Lee Bei Lei tells how at the end of a day's training he was so stiff that he could not climb the stairs to his room. Master Lau Kim Hong tells how his teacher Lu Tong Bao would 'spar' with his students, inviting them to attack him One at a time, whereupon he would punch, kick and throw them to the ground. In these sessions students would suffer strains, sprains and even broken bones. Thus it was from the time of its arrival in the region, Cheng style was established as an effective fighting art fit to rival the arts already popular.

A tradition was also established of hard, physical training. The curriculum taught by those early teachers consisted of form, applications and pushing hands. Weapons were also taught. Then after Cheng's visit in 1958, when he taught a set of qigong exercises designed to develop internal strength, these too became an important part of the syllabus.

Master Lau Kim Hong tells how his teacher Lu Tong Bao would 'spar' with his students, inviting them to attack him One at a time, whereupon he would punch, kick and throw them to the ground. In these sessions students would suffer strains, sprains and even broken bones.

sounds like what your looking for

good luck on your journey

Sounds like the crossfit approach. Overwork a bunch of unskilled people and make them think they are training the right way because they are exhausted while the teacher drinks tea. Throwing people around isn't teaching. It's demonstrating (showing off).

It says students but more often then not, the students have many yrs of MA experience behind them.
The way they train reflects their own view points and out look,,,ie fighters looking to learn to fight against others fighters
not " talk" about rotating dantians or using force or not....

[slowEdie]

A tradition was also established of hard, physical training. The curriculum taught by those early teachers consisted of form, applications and pushing hands. Weapons were also taught. Then after Cheng's visit in 1958, when he taught a set of qigong exercises designed to develop internal strength, these too became an important part of the syllabus.

Does anyone here train this set of qigong exercises designed to develop internal strength, and willing to elaborate on them?

[Taste of Death]

You don't know what you are talking about taste
You are talking about my lineage
Both if yap's students chock seng kam and Lou tong bao were tested in real combat many times
Both them and their students were tested against all comers and that is how they promoted the art

A teacher or coach who hurts his students and athletes should have no students or athletes.

Showing off one's ability is not teaching. It's showing the students what they will never have because the teacher would not be able to push younger and stronger men around if he taught them everything. Both Sam Tam and Fong Ha demonstrate rather than teach. Sam would never reveal all.

Real combat involves life and death not point scoring. Whenever an athlete calls himself a warrior he is quickly reminded that he plays a sport. Surfing, skiing, rock climbing, etc. can be life and death and after spending time battling mother nature a fight doesn't seem so scary.

[MaartenSFS]

I think that the difference between roughing up your students a bit to keep training realistic and injuring them is quite important. Only demonstrating is exactly why arts die. The joy of sparring with your master and getting your arse handed to you is one of the best things that has ever happened to me. Sometimes minor injuries are sustained, but I always knew that this would be more dangerous than knitting class..