Chen Tai Chi Training

[windwalker]

dude, there's an easier way to make your point. it involves a training/sparring partner and a camera phone.

sure be my guest

the OP request

Please I'm interested in learning about the training involved in Chen Tai Chi, particularly taught by Chen Xiao Wang, Chen Ziqiang, Chen Bing, etc.

At any point of the training do students face full speed (not necessarily full contact) AND spontaneous attacks from a partner/teacher? Not free push hands. Not sport boxing.

Please can you provide a video if so.

seems its been met on a number of different post.

[charles]

I think this thread is funny.
I also must commend shoebox for controlling the outcome, he's got people taking commands. LMAO!
Also I don't think that video above was rigged at all, if anything it is played down to nothing.
If that clip was rigged it would be infinitely better then that.
Next topic because I'm not hearing the right words.
probably should not put this online but the hell with it. About 12 years ago I added Chen reeling silk to
my yang style. At that time I was still doing MMA and had a Yang style master coming to my house to teach me in private.
I started learning a little bit of the Chen forms and had to give it up, because I just had my hands full with all the other stuff.
Anyways at that time I called YMMA who is like the main source in Boston on internal arts and asked the instructor there
if he had a DVD on Chen with applications. The guy told me "NO, I have Yang, Wu, Sun, Shaolin and Bagua with applications on DVD if you like", I said
no I want Chen Laojia with applications. This is what the guy said. "You want to learn Chen" yes "you have to be careful
with Chen because the applications are lost". I said they cant be lost, I know people doing Chen and push with them. he said "NO, somewhere
in time they were lost".
So I went back to the guy who at that time had 25 years in Chen and he did not know any applications from the forms.
He had Excellent form and excellent traditional push hands, Some grappling. Maybe a couple simple app's.
long story short, The applications are not lost. They are just very, very hard to find, only a few people have them and
yes they are fight worthy if you spend a few years on them. The real kicker is the cost...Thousands.
Maybe things have changed now at YMMA, maybe they have them now, I don't know. Every so often a new application is clearly
shown on the net, weather it is original or not? That isn't even important anyways because the app's are useless without the correct foundation and
spiraling integration of the body that is necessary to power them and even then, you must have a master directly teach them to you
first by showing them and then until it's installed in the body and they are not a One size fits all, it the whole picture.
The art is incredibly complicated to learn.

Not that it matters to anyone, but I find this thread sad.

Applications of Chen forms are not lost. They are not even difficult to find. Even on Youtube. Instructional demonstrations of applications are not free-form fighting. It is not even that difficult to find a teacher who teaches applications. It is difficult to find a teacher who can/will fight with them. It does not cost thousands of dollars, though one can pay thousands of dollars if one so chooses.

The founder of YMMA is Yang Jwing Ming. In the late 1980's, YJM spent two years learning Chen Pao Chui from Liang Shouyou. (YJM is/was a disciple of LSY's.) YJM demonstrated his two years of study/practice of the form at A Taste of China in 1998. His demonstration used to be on Youtube. I can't find it at the moment.

[willie]

I think this thread is funny.
I also must commend shoebox for controlling the outcome, he's got people taking commands. LMAO!
Also I don't think that video above was rigged at all, if anything it is played down to nothing.
If that clip was rigged it would be infinitely better then that.
Next topic because I'm not hearing the right words.
probably should not put this online but the hell with it. About 12 years ago I added Chen reeling silk to
my yang style. At that time I was still doing MMA and had a Yang style master coming to my house to teach me in private.
I started learning a little bit of the Chen forms and had to give it up, because I just had my hands full with all the other stuff.
Anyways at that time I called YMMA who is like the main source in Boston on internal arts and asked the instructor there
if he had a DVD on Chen with applications. The guy told me "NO, I have Yang, Wu, Sun, Shaolin and Bagua with applications on DVD if you like", I said
no I want Chen Laojia with applications. This is what the guy said. "You want to learn Chen" yes "you have to be careful
with Chen because the applications are lost". I said they cant be lost, I know people doing Chen and push with them. he said "NO, somewhere
in time they were lost".
So I went back to the guy who at that time had 25 years in Chen and he did not know any applications from the forms.
He had Excellent form and excellent traditional push hands, Some grappling. Maybe a couple simple app's.
long story short, The applications are not lost. They are just very, very hard to find, only a few people have them and
yes they are fight worthy if you spend a few years on them. The real kicker is the cost...Thousands.
Maybe things have changed now at YMMA, maybe they have them now, I don't know. Every so often a new application is clearly
shown on the net, weather it is original or not? That isn't even important anyways because the app's are useless without the correct foundation and
spiraling integration of the body that is necessary to power them and even then, you must have a master directly teach them to you
first by showing them and then until it's installed in the body and they are not a One size fits all, it the whole picture.
The art is incredibly complicated to learn.

Not that it matters to anyone, but I find this thread sad.

Applications of Chen forms are not lost. They are not even difficult to find. Even on Youtube. Instructional demonstrations of applications are not free-form fighting. It is not even that difficult to find a teacher who teaches applications. It is difficult to find a teacher who can/will fight with them. It does not cost thousands of dollars, though one can pay thousands of dollars if one so chooses.

The founder of YMMA is Yang Jwing Ming. In the late 1980's, YJM spent two years learning Chen Pao Chui from Liang Shouyou. (YJM is/was a disciple of LSY's.) YJM demonstrated his two years of study/practice of the form at A Taste of China in 1998. His demonstration used to be on Youtube. I can't find it at the moment.

I told you exactly what was said to me by YMMA at that time. I actually bought some DVD's from them which I still have.
My Teacher does fight with them and that's why it cost so much. It's because he has to devote a lot of time one on one with me. Do you assume
that everyone's time is free? if you found that situation then hey great for you. Let's say that CXW came down to do a seminar and you wanted to
get one on one with him to learn how to fight with the app's, how much do you think it would cost you per hour?, How many years would it take?
now I hope you get the picture.
Yes this thread is very sad indeed...

[shoebox55]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6tvS5jQ-FE

Hi Windwalker, thanks for the above video. Do you or anyone else have any videos of a tai chi/bagua/etc. advanced practitioner defending against unrehearsed quick punches in succession, like the master above is doing against his student?

[MaartenSFS]

Chen Taiji teachers that can show applications are a dime a dozen over here. There are even some that can fight with them. They are not lost... That is pure hogwash. I've seen Chen, Yang, Wu, Hulei, Sun etc. Chen definitely has the most.

[willie]

Chen Taiji teachers that can show applications are a dime a dozen over here. There are even some that can fight with them. They are not lost... That is pure hogwash. I've seen Chen, Yang, Wu, Hulei, Sun etc. Chen definitely has the most.

I hope they can fight with them...

[shoebox55]

Just to clarify--not how the master in the video is demonstrating bagua against a motionless student...but to see someone in video defend against the same same kind of fast punches the teacher is doing spontaneously and not repeated in same sequence so as to be unpredictable

[shoebox55]

"One of the most important innovations in Kano's Judo was the emphasis placed on "randori" , or non-cooperative free sparring practice. The majority of the ancient Jiu-Jitsu styles based their training on pre-arranged sequences of attack and defense known as "kata" . Although Kano acknowledged the value of kata practice (kata training is present in Judo training to this day), he also realized the absolute necessity of learning to apply techniques in the most realistic manner. Randori allows the practitioner to develop the mindset and technical proficiency needed to apply techniques against fully resisting opponents in as realistic a venue as safety allows. "

I randomly came across this through Tim Cartmell''s website. I want to agree with this. That being said, please can anyone provide videos of Tai Chi being used in free sparring, with someone having to defend from fast punch combinations from various angles.

[willie]

"One of the most important innovations in Kano's Judo was the emphasis placed on "randori" , or non-cooperative free sparring practice. The majority of the ancient Jiu-Jitsu styles based their training on pre-arranged sequences of attack and defense known as "kata" . Although Kano acknowledged the value of kata practice (kata training is present in Judo training to this day), he also realized the absolute necessity of learning to apply techniques in the most realistic manner. Randori allows the practitioner to develop the mindset and technical proficiency needed to apply techniques against fully resisting opponents in as realistic a venue as safety allows. "

I randomly came across this through Tim Cartmell''s website. I want to agree with this. That being said, please can anyone provide videos of Tai Chi being used in free sparring, with someone having to defend from fast punch combinations from various angles.

This is getting more and more interesting with you shoebox. You have a very limited view on taijiquan directly from your school.
Maybe you should find a new teacher.
Is there even a way to safely spar with taiji?
Let me see...
No gloves mean's fight not spar. So how are you going to do it? Just let any random guy through endless hooks at your head?
How should we reply to an asshole like that, push hands? ha, ha, not me...
how do you turn down fajin? You can't! So it's impossible to really use taijiquan unless you mean it!
You obviously no nothing of fajin, dantian power, rooting, or peng type strikes, because if you did then you wouldn't be asking any questions at all.

[shoebox55]

leave it to willie to hijack my thread

[shoebox55]

Willie where may I please pray ask where you develop reaction training if tai chi is too dangerous to spar?

[willie]

Willie where may I please pray ask where you develop reaction training if tai chi is too dangerous to spar?

sorry, answer your own questions.

[cloudz]

I think the lack of enthusiasm for this is telling, people are a bit jaded with it for various reasons... Anyway, here's something that's been floating around for a while. Let us know what you think.

[Bhassler]

Was hoping you were posting this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSxR1wWsggk

[slowEdie]

fwiw ......the little chen I learnt from peter wu in melbourne....I can't imagine how you could spar with the apps.
Advertised as "Chen Battlefield Tai Chi" every move or three was a totaler, arm breaks, knees in balls, grab balls
and rip them up to chin, forarm sliding up the center of the chest to throat, bending them backwards and then punching down ripping the diaphram whilst leg stomps and takes out his leg.....mortar pounded!!!
I can't imagine trying to spar with that....