Chen Tai Chi Training

[Taste of Death]

I think that the difference between roughing up your students a bit to keep training realistic and injuring them is quite important. Only demonstrating is exactly why arts die. The joy of sparring with your master and getting your arse handed to you is one of the best things that has ever happened to me. Sometimes minor injuries are sustained, but I always knew that this would be more dangerous than knitting class..

Injuries are going to happen but if several guys end up with broken bones from the teacher something is wrong.

Sparring with teacher so we can become more like him is better than fighting a hopeless battle we will never win.

[MaartenSFS]

True. A good teacher can bring their level down to give you a fighting chance and humble you when you get too cocky..

[Hakkesho]

There's one Chen taiji teacher who can use it quite efficiently in Beijing: Xu shisi but his taiji is unorthodox, which doesn't matter if you are looking for practical usage. I would also look for Chen Yu but he moved his school in the outskirts of Beijing.
I also practice CMC tjq from Malaysia and there are some teachers there who can really fight. There's another teacher in Taipei (forgot his name) but he's also very good.
Best

Michael

[Subitai]

Sorry to go a little off what the OP was asking but the topic of Taiji and fighting is too tempting to not say something.

When you hear talk about who WAS good at fighting with Taiji and who currently is...the vast majority is usually in "was" category as in past tense. IMO, empty locker stories tend to get blown out of proportion. People won't like this but if I were a big guy like Yang Shou hou was...just my size alone could beat most people, of course he was awesome so on top of His size, I tend to believe it was easier for him than most. Especially if he was facing smaller Chinese people.

CXW came to my school with his student Ren guang yi once...they were there to make a photo shoot. I must say, typical for northern Chinese that have access to western diets, they were big guys. 6' + and over 200lbs each. When gentleman of there size also have great skill, it's even more impressive visually. But I favor the smaller teachers who have to rely on more skill. 2 cts.

I don't personally do Chen style, though I play with Chen people often. I've also visited Chen Village once, saw how they trained...it was surprising to me how the training seemed very hard style as the students were younger and then progressed to form as they got older.

- ala groups of young kids (5 - 8 yrs old) in stances throwing reverse punches. It reminded me of what I saw at Shaolin...it almost makes you think of where original Karate may have it's roots
- Then groups of (10 -14yrolds) working on throws shuai and beating eachother up...I like it.
- Then another group of teenagers (15 and up) doing more push hands type stuff with throws and locks as well.
- Finally the adults were doing forms and weapons.

--- It's interesting in that they say if you carry the "Chen" surname...you MUST be able to use your Chen Style....All admirable but, the world is bigger than Chen village and allot of other styles, other cultures and people also have good kung fu.

Basically i'm backing up what wayne hansen was saying: "Just wondered is there no one in the cmc linage who fills this void"

Of course i'm biased because I do Yang and Sun, but it seems to me that most Chen guys are way too concerned with "peng , peng, peng" in every thing and if they're not the defensive type, then they seem to attack more. Which IMO is easier to deal with.

A style like Yang or Wu IMO is usually more patient and waits to follow their opponent. Again, this is in general but not always of course. This is significant to me because as a person gets older it's smarter to be this way IMO.


P.S. When you look at allot of the famous masters of the past that were supposedly Great fighters...their history usually shows that when they were younger they also did other kung fu (usually more external type when they were younger). Literally and especially in modern day, Most people who are SOLELY trained in Taiji alone are not famous for fighting. Certainly not in any sort of MMA arena. IMO, it gives credence that Taiji is graduate level work.

[cloudz]

YSH always struck me as being more of a smaller guy, were you thinking of someone else - his younger but rounder brother perhaps?

[Subitai]

YSH always struck me as being more of a smaller guy, were you thinking of someone else - his younger but rounder brother perhaps?

My bad...was typing fast, just going off memory I do believe Yang Chengfu had pretty good size on him.

[shoebox55]

Thank you for your stories and recommendations. I was really hoping to see videos of training which involves training against an unpredictable partner at full speed (not necessarily full contact). It would be nice to actually know what that looks like. Please PM me or divulge more details of how this training goes down. I'm not restricting to Chen style any tai chi style if somebody has video.

Second, If going in to learn Tai chi for martial arts, how is this, a logical step, where one actually trains as describe above, that is seemingly rare or missing that nobody can produce a single video?

I mean how can one feel truly confident in their fighting ability if they have never seen punches coming at all angles at full speed and not knowing where they are coming from?

[willie]

Thank you for your stories and recommendations. I was really hoping to see videos of training which involves training against an unpredictable partner at full speed (not necessarily full contact). It would be nice to actually know what that looks like. Please PM me or divulge more details of how this training goes down. I'm not restricting to Chen style any tai chi style if somebody has video.

Second, If going in to learn Tai chi for martial arts, how is this, a logical step, where one actually trains as describe above, that is seemingly rare or missing that nobody can produce a single video?

I mean how can one feel truly confident in their fighting ability if they have never seen punches coming at all angles at full speed and not knowing where they are coming from?

Truly feel confident? Didn't you say that you couldn't mess with your teacher?
Your contradicting yourself. You said that you train taiji, So I'm sure you have your own thoughts, Maybe you would like to share?
https://youtu.be/_8KLR4_7IvE
I just thought of something. It's your name, Shoebox, I know a guy from New Jersey, CMC linage. Designed stainless steel shoeboxes for high end stores in NYC,
Used to come to my house and train, We did yang style mixed with Jiu Jitsu ground grappling, Name was Pete, Assistant instructor, CMC linage, Hated Chen taiji,
Liked to throw random punches, Big guy 6'4' 220 maybe, That you?
How about a video?
Thanks

[shoebox55]

That is right I wouldn't mess with my tai chi teacher. I wouldn't even think of messing with Chen Xiao Wang, etc. I've seen their power, there is no question there of what the consequence would be.

My apologies, if my post sounds disrespectful, it is not meant to be. First thing, the power is there, I think having that power alone could suffice. Where the doubt lingers in my mind is simply the training methodology, where if your intended objective in learning martial arts is to defend yourself, then you have to defend yourself against an opponent that you do not know what he is going to do, at full speed (not necessarily full contact).

No, I am not that person, don't hate chen Taiji, I wrote that I was considering taking up Chen style training.

Thank you for the video.

[charles]

That is right I wouldn't mess with my tai chi teacher.... I was considering taking up Chen style training.

Why?

What do expect that Chen style Taijiquan is going to teach you - or you will get from - studying it that you can't get from your current teacher?

[shoebox55]

Please don't want to detract from the main question which is to witness Tai Chi techniques being applied against an unpredictable training partner who is attacking at full speed. Not looking to see sports boxing or free push hands.

I think my response will take this thread off course. That being said, I'm open to any style that can demonstrate the above in a video.

[willie]

That is right I wouldn't mess with my tai chi teacher. I wouldn't even think of messing with Chen Xiao Wang, etc. I've seen their power, there is no question there of what the consequence would be.

My apologies, if my post sounds disrespectful, it is not meant to be. First thing, the power is there, I think having that power alone could suffice. Where the doubt lingers in my mind is simply the training methodology, where if your intended objective in learning martial arts is to defend yourself, then you have to defend yourself against an opponent that you do not know what he is going to do, at full speed (not necessarily full contact).

No, I am not that person, don't hate chen Taiji, I wrote that I was considering taking up Chen style training.

Thank you for the video.

No need to apologize, Just wondering why your saying 2 different things.
Your saying that you wouldn't fight your teacher. "I would and do". If you want the kind of skills they have, You have to get "one on one" and feel
their power. Me and my teacher go at it "real hard" with striking. The transmission comes from correct training and by "direct contact with them".
You have to feel it.

So maybe it's the training methods that you or your school is currently doing that are disappointing you?
If that is the case and your teacher doesn't like to engage on that level, Then it is up to you and only you to find yourself.
Find friends that you trust, get together and train every little damn thing until you have it down.

Kind of interesting that the guy I know, Pete called me about a year ago and said that he was not satisfied with the unrealistic training at his school.
He was even talking to me about finding fighters to throw "random" punches at him?

Thanks for your post.

[charles]

Please don't want to detract from the main question which is to witness Tai Chi techniques being applied against an unpredictable training partner who is attacking at full speed. Not looking to see sports boxing or free push hands.

I think my response will take this thread off course. That being said, I'm open to any style that can demonstrate the above in a video.

Fair enough.

Good luck with your pursuit.

[Finny]

Please don't want to detract from the main question which is to witness Tai Chi techniques being applied against an unpredictable training partner who is attacking at full speed. Not looking to see sports boxing or free push hands.

I think my response will take this thread off course. That being said, I'm open to any style that can demonstrate the above in a video.

in what way is 'sports boxing' not the perfect exemplar of a 'training partner who is attacking at full speed'?

Have you not noticed that the modern definition of 'non sporting' unarmed MA primarily exists to 'learn techniques/principles' which are then NOT applied to full speed, unpredictable resistant competition?

Do you really think that the reason combat sports such as boxing, wrestling, muay thai etc were what professional NHB fighters incorporated into their repertoire is because the only good, skilled, legit TMA masters are old wispy bearded monks hiding on mountain tops?

Seriously, you are asking for something that traditional martial artists have been asking for since the advent of the Internet - an example of a traditional art in use against a resisting opponent.

Various examples have emerged over the years, and have commonly been met with one of several responses:

'That's not (Taiji/Wing Chun/Xingyi/insert TMA) - that's just brawling/kickboxing/mma'
'That's not a SKILLED resisting opponent'
'Where is the (insert mythical TMA characteristic here)?

So - you clearly have the Internet - how about YOU show us an example of what you are talking about?

[shoebox55]

Hi Finny, glad you asked that question because it helps clarify what I'm looking for. We drill the tai chi form over and over and over again so the biomechanics are perfect. Then when it comes to sparring, at least the videos on the internet I've seen, it becomes kick boxing, I'm not seeing the form being expressed.

Just want to point out I'm not trashing boxing, kickboxing, or Muay Thai. The reason I'm saying not sport boxing, my definition which is Tai Chi being expressed as these other arts, and not as what I would expect Tai Chi to look like, since I'm not seeing the form. Maybe it's there, and I'm not seeing it, if so point it out.

I don't have videos that is why I'm asking anyone here to provide a video. Please it would be greatly appreciated

Maybe I can at least provide examples of what I would like to see :
http://www.cntjq.net/article-14400-1.html
it takes 30 second to load,
where is the fajin? How come he doesn't punch like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW2eJL-zOYs
or this Kick: 2:35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnhE0B-ro9U
or incorporate stomping :40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyNSJSAUFZ0

Ideally this is what I would like to see:
Not limited to these applications. However, the person red attacking Chen Xiao Wang at fastest speed he can and using multiple variations of punches/kicks/grabs so there is no forewarning of what is going to happen. Of course, Chen wouldn't be striking back at full force but at least reading the attack and making the split second decision to react back using the technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5L7uz8B8X4