Chen Tai Chi Training

[charles]

Hi Finny, glad you asked that question because it helps clarify what I'm looking for. We drill the tai chi form over and over and over again so the biomechanics are perfect. Then when it comes to sparring, at least the videos on the internet I've seen, it becomes kick boxing, I'm not seeing the form being expressed.

Do I understand correctly from your statements that your training with your teacher consists of solo form practice only: you do not do sparing or two-person work? You are looking for video that shows what the art looks like when actually used for fighting since that is not being taught or practiced in your classes? And you are looking to Chen Village practitioners to show what that looks like?

Out of curiosity, what do you think the stomping, such as demonstrated in the CZQ video you posted, is used for in fighting? Since it is such a frequent component in the form demonstration shown, shouldn't it be a key ingredient in any kind of Chen style fighting? There are many videos of him doing two-person work with "opponents", some less cooperative than others. None of those two-person videos show him using stomping. Why do you think that is?

[willie]

Hi Finny, glad you asked that question because it helps clarify what I'm looking for. We drill the tai chi form over and over and over again so the biomechanics are perfect. Then when it comes to sparring, at least the videos on the internet I've seen, it becomes kick boxing, I'm not seeing the form being expressed.

Just want to point out I'm not trashing boxing, kickboxing, or Muay Thai. The reason I'm saying not sport boxing, my definition which is Tai Chi being expressed as these other arts, and not as what I would expect Tai Chi to look like, since I'm not seeing the form. Maybe it's there, and I'm not seeing it, if so point it out.

I don't have videos that is why I'm asking anyone here to provide a video. Please it would be greatly appreciated

Maybe I can at least provide examples of what I would like to see :
http://www.cntjq.net/article-14400-1.html
it takes 30 second to load,
where is the fajin? How come he doesn't punch like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW2eJL-zOYs
or this Kick: 2:35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnhE0B-ro9U
or incorporate stomping :40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyNSJSAUFZ0

Ideally this is what I would like to see:
Not limited to these applications. However, the person red attacking Chen Xiao Wang at fastest speed he can and using multiple variations of punches/kicks/grabs so there is no forewarning of what is going to happen. Of course, Chen wouldn't be striking back at full force but at least reading the attack and making the split second decision to react back using the technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5L7uz8B8X4

Shoebox, I'm kind-of wondering why your using Chen as a example of why the form isn't there while fighting?
Why are you using Chen when your from CMC linage?
Why are you using Chen Xiao Wang as a example when you don't know anything about the inner workings of the style?
I'm guessing that you don't like the grappling part in Chen and feel that it is not taiji?
I'm kind-of wondering who your teacher is?

[Finny]

Hi Finny, glad you asked that question because it helps clarify what I'm looking for. We drill the tai chi form over and over and over again so the biomechanics are perfect. Then when it comes to sparring, at least the videos on the internet I've seen, it becomes kick boxing, I'm not seeing the form being expressed.

well. My response would be that - you're not seeing 'the form being expressed' because your understanding of the form is flawed.

I'm not a Taiji expert though, so I base this response off the CMA that I do have some experience with - Wing Chun

if you have ever seen Wing Chun forms you should be aware of how far from the reality of fighting they are. We too, drilled siu nim tao for example, repeatedly, 'so the biomechanics are perfect'. However, not a single technique trained in the form is used 'as is'. Pak sao, which is a pushing/slapping deflection, in the form is represented by the hand held at the solar plexus, being pushed across to the side, as far as the armpit.

I've never had someone try to punch the centre of my pectoral muscle. I don't ever see myself having to deflect a punch aimed there.

This same obvious lack of applicability can be seen in every aspect of that form. Every single technique would HAVE to be changed in order to apply it.

So what can we deduce? Either we're being taught stupid forms that teach things that just don't work, or we need to actually think about what we're doing here for a minute or two. Maybe, just maybe.. we aren't supposed to view the form as a finishing point, where once it is learned 'so the biomechanics are perfect' we can simply slot it into a fight..

Maybe, we are supposed to view the form as an alphabet of sorts, a catalog of PRINCIPLES - principles which are then to be explored, examined and ingrained for use in a fight. So.. surprise surprise, a punch will likely look like a punch. A pak sao, rather than looking like a pigeon toed, stiff push from the solar plexus to the armpit, will look like a slip (which is seen in boxing all the time) - and may look very little like the example provided by the form. But it WILL be an expression of the principle - the hand will cross the centreline, deflecting an incoming attack. It won't extend further than necessary to protect the target, then will return to a usable position.. ie all of the essential elements of the principle provided for in the alphabet will be used in the frenetic context of a fight.

it's never going to look exactly like the form. Don't be stupid.. think a little.

[windwalker]

it's never going to look exactly like the form. Don't be stupid.. think a little.

so why does boxing look like boxing?

[Finny]

Everything boxers do "looks like boxing"?

I would say - it doesn't.

Do boxers practice ONE 'jab' form? No, they practice the principle of the jab. Moving forwards, throwing it slightly sideways, upwards, downwards, while moving sideways, while covering with their back hand, while not covering, hooking off the jab, feinting the jab.. - in short - they practice the principle of the jab. That's why intelligent people recognise that boxers work damn hard, while traditional martial artists dabble.

[cloudz]

it's never going to look exactly like the form. Don't be stupid.. think a little.

so why does boxing look like boxing?

The rules mainly. However not every boxer looks like every other boxer, though some do have similar styles. The training, the techniques are all a product of what existed before in Western martial traditions moulded and honed and evolved through the Queensbury rules. Every boxer will look to utilize any means open to them to triumph accordingly, playing to their own strengths then becomes an obvious path.

Any cursory examination will uncover that pre existing western martial traditions contained material (techniques) as well as theory not much unlike their Eastern counterparts.

[shoebox55]

Finny, I get what you are saying, but it doesn't cut it for me. You play as you practice. I played baseball and it wouldn't make sense to me to practice over and over and over a particular stance and then when I go and play totally reject what I've been training and adopt another stance. From practicing slowly working on the mechanics, working the tee, and then going to batting practice, and then going against a live pitcher. From the beginning to the end everything built on each other and is seamless. Same with learning to pitch, I wouldn't spend countless hours perfecting mechanics going slow, to reject what I've been training on, when I went to pitch.

Also, just want to add I don't care for your disrespectful attitude. Here is a video from a school that uses their kung fu in sparring. I'm neutral regarding the school but I agree with their training methodology. You learn the pattern, the sequences, training with a partner using fighting sets, and get to a point where you are free sparring. They don't practice kung fu stances and then go into sparring rejecting the stances and patterns they trained in. It is logical to me that training.
http://shaolin.org/video-clips-6/sparri ... final.html

Can anyone offer up any videos or recommend any teachers that have bridged the gap from learning forms to free sparring in Tai Chi? Essentially the same question I've been asking this entire time.

[Andy_S]

If you want to see Chen Taiji in action against a "live" opponent, look up the many, many clips of Chen Zhiqiang on YouTube.

During his global seminar tours he takes on all comers in free push hands (a stand-up grappling format). You can see him throwing much larger people around, and, on occasion, getting thrown around or down himself. IOW, he is not an invincible master; there is no "magic" at work here, but if you have the eye for it, you can see a lot of "techniques" in action - flash the back, hook hand, shoulder strike, etc.

While it is a limited format, this IS real for what it is. And while we may legitimately question the fighting quality of the people he is playing with (how would Chen do against an experienced judoka, rassler or MMA guy?) the fact that he handles so many people so casually (on the whole) - while almost always being outsized and outweighed - says something for his skills and personality.

If you want to see his uncle Chen Xiaowang applying Taiji against a "resisting" opponent...good luck. He is a very good demonstrator and a fair teacher, but he is not (and I don't think he claims to be) a fighter.

There are clips out there of him doing free PH with a Bagua/HsingI guy in Taiwan, who is clearly not well versed in PH, and who wants to play a kind of light, striking game. The guy himself does not look particularly competent and the "rules" are unclear - OTOH Chen, a "grandmaster" is unable to get to grips with him. While the guy's final "strike" bounces off Chen - who is well trained in the basics, and is built like an oak tree - Chen himself does not come out looking good. He seems unable to bridge, stick, lead and/or follow - ie unable to apply the key Taiji skills supposedly trained in PH. The only thing that is (mildly) impressive is his "rooting." Neither he nor his "opponent" come across as experienced or effective fighters by any metric. (Compare and contrast with pro sanda or pro MMA guys sparring.)

Yet Chen XIaowang is Chen Ziqiang's uncle and senior in the art, who is shown, on several clips, hurling his nephew hither and yon. How can two men have such different skillsets?

Simply:
Different times in China (When Chen Sr was coming up, there was little application training and few fighting formats in China. In today's China, this has changed substantially with the advent of sansau/sanda, and with many TCMArtists wondering how their skills stack up in more open combative formats than they traditionally trained in.)
Different personalities. (Chen Sr is a great demonstrator. Chen Jr is a pretty fair fighter)
Tradition (In demonstrations, Chen Jr is fall guy for Chen Sr)

I agree with those above who say that Chen is the most dynamic looking of the Taiji styles and "looks" fightier. It also has actual, rational skillsets that train silk reeling, grounding and fajin. But let us be frank: Generally, it does not have a fighting pedigree outside its own skillset (ie push hands).

The last Taiji fighter who was renowned as an all-round fighter was Feng Ziqiang of Beijjing. He joined the early, overseas early tours of the Chinese Wushu Demo Team as a kind of bodyguard (just in case any foreign MArstist wanted to take on the kids). During informal exchanges on the sidelines of one of these tours, Feng impressed the hell out of some senior members of the San Fransisco CMA community in the 1980s.

If you want combative Taiji that actually competes in open sanda, sansau and other non-Taiji fighting formats, check out the Wudang/Practical Taiji organization run by Dan Docherty in Europe. But they are Wu style rather than Chen style. They trace their lineage back to Cheng Ting-hung's famous Hong Kong school, which was a mainstay on the Hong Kong team with fought on Leitais around South East Asia in the 1970s and 80s.

[windwalker]

boxing looks like boxing does anyone doubt this?
people bring up attribute training to develop it, and then question it.

it's never going to look exactly like the form. Don't be stupid.. think a little.

I would ask the same of some here, think a little.

kind of a sore subject with me, in the 70s CMA was kind of a joke with many always wondering why it never looked like what was practiced.
I made sure in my own training that what I practiced was functional...as those I engaged with found out.

there are teachers and styles who practice as they train, what they practice they use


In corresponding with one of the students of this teacher
they use and test their style all the time against all comers.

https://www.youtube.com/user/baguamaweiqi/videos
many of the clips are dubbed or subtitled in eng.

[willie]

Finny, I get what you are saying, but it doesn't cut it for me.

Can anyone offer up any videos or recommend any teachers that have bridged the gap from learning forms to free sparring in Tai Chi? Essentially the same question I've been asking this entire time.

Yeah.

[cloudz]

boxing looks like boxing does anyone doubt this?
people bring up attribute training to develop it, and then question it.

it's never going to look exactly like the form. Don't be stupid.. think a little.

I would ask the same of some here, think a little.

kind of a sore subject with me, in the 70s CMA was kind of a joke with many always wondering why it never looked like what was practiced.
I made sure in my own training that what I practiced was functional...as those I engaged with found out.

there are teachers and styles who practice as they train, what they practice they use


In corresponding with one of the students of this teacher
they use and test their style all the time against all comers.

https://www.youtube.com/user/baguamaweiqi/videos
many of the clips are dubbed or subtitled in eng.

dude, there's an easier way to make your point. it involves a training/sparring partner and a camera phone.

[Finny]

Finny, I get what you are saying, but it doesn't cut it for me. You play as you practice. I played baseball and it wouldn't make sense to me to practice over and over and over a particular stance and then when I go and play totally reject what I've been training and adopt another stance. From practicing slowly working on the mechanics, working the tee, and then going to batting practice, and then going against a live pitcher. From the beginning to the end everything built on each other and is seamless. Same with learning to pitch, I wouldn't spend countless hours perfecting mechanics going slow, to reject what I've been training on, when I went to pitch.

Also, just want to add I don't care for your disrespectful attitude. Here is a video from a school that uses their kung fu in sparring. I'm neutral regarding the school but I agree with their training methodology. You learn the pattern, the sequences, training with a partner using fighting sets, and get to a point where you are free sparring. They don't practice kung fu stances and then go into sparring rejecting the stances and patterns they trained in. It is logical to me that training.
http://shaolin.org/video-clips-6/sparri ... final.html

Can anyone offer up any videos or recommend any teachers that have bridged the gap from learning forms to free sparring in Tai Chi? Essentially the same question I've been asking this entire time.

If you play as you practice - are you saying that Taiji folks should fight in slow motion?

Because the bulk of Taiji form work I've seen - outside Chen specifically (and a couple of other exceptions) have involved performing exceedingly slow movement. That is afterall THE famous Taiji characteristic.

So... is it logical to fight someone moving at normal speed.. in slow motion? Of course not. So .. are you saying you expect Taiji folks to do techniques from the forms 'as is'... but sped up? Why is it ok to alter the speed, but not the shape of the movement?

I'm sorry if you find my attitude disrespectful. I've been a member here for well over a decade (nearly 15 years actually) and have seen this topic discussed repeatedly - most old timers here know me and how I write. I would ask who exactly you thought I was disrespecting, but I can see from my previous post - perhaps you thought I was saying you were stupid. That is certainly not what I intended, and if that's how you interpreted it I apologise. It does seem stupid to me to expect a Taiji person to fight using the techniques from the form 'as is' - for reasons I've detailed in this and previous posts.

Further - if what you are after is so obvious and makes such sense.. why have you come here (from a CMC Taiji background) looking for it? If Chen shi Taiji clearly uses faster, more obviously applicable techniques in their forms, why are there not an abundance of Chen people fighting on video, using what are clearly techniques from the forms?

Again, I mean no offense, it just seems like common sense to me. If it worked like that.. it would work like that.

[cloudz]

Finny, I get what you are saying, but it doesn't cut it for me. You play as you practice. I played baseball and it wouldn't make sense to me to practice over and over and over a particular stance and then when I go and play totally reject what I've been training and adopt another stance. From practicing slowly working on the mechanics, working the tee, and then going to batting practice, and then going against a live pitcher. From the beginning to the end everything built on each other and is seamless. Same with learning to pitch, I wouldn't spend countless hours perfecting mechanics going slow, to reject what I've been training on, when I went to pitch.

Also, just want to add I don't care for your disrespectful attitude. Here is a video from a school that uses their kung fu in sparring. I'm neutral regarding the school but I agree with their training methodology. You learn the pattern, the sequences, training with a partner using fighting sets, and get to a point where you are free sparring. They don't practice kung fu stances and then go into sparring rejecting the stances and patterns they trained in. It is logical to me that training.
http://shaolin.org/video-clips-6/sparri ... final.html

Can anyone offer up any videos or recommend any teachers that have bridged the gap from learning forms to free sparring in Tai Chi? Essentially the same question I've been asking this entire time.

That school has at least one guy enter full contact san shou. See if you can find that clip and compare to the one you linked. Don't know if it's still up anywhere as it was some time back now..

[cloudz]

Maybe those wu lin TV show clips are the kind of thing you are looking for. I have heard they have a staged aspect to them, not sure how much. But I think you can get something from them, regards you enquiry. There's a bunch of them with Chen guys in them.

[willie]

I think this thread is funny.
I also must commend shoebox for controlling the outcome, he's got people taking commands. LMAO!
Also I don't think that video above was rigged at all, if anything it is played down to nothing.
If that clip was rigged it would be infinitely better then that.
Next topic because I'm not hearing the right words.
probably should not put this online but the hell with it. About 12 years ago I added Chen reeling silk to
my yang style. At that time I was still doing MMA and had a Yang style master coming to my house to teach me in private.
I started learning a little bit of the Chen forms and had to give it up, because I just had my hands full with all the other stuff.
Anyways at that time I called YMMA who is like the main source in Boston on internal arts and asked the instructor there
if he had a DVD on Chen with applications. The guy told me "NO, I have Yang, Wu, Sun, Shaolin and Bagua with applications on DVD if you like", I said
no I want Chen Laojia with applications. This is what the guy said. "You want to learn Chen" yes "you have to be careful
with Chen because the applications are lost". I said they cant be lost, I know people doing Chen and push with them. he said "NO, somewhere
in time they were lost".
So I went back to the guy who at that time had 25 years in Chen and he did not know any applications from the forms.
He had Excellent form and excellent traditional push hands, Some grappling. Maybe a couple simple app's.
long story short, The applications are not lost. They are just very, very hard to find, only a few people have them and
yes they are fight worthy if you spend a few years on them. The real kicker is the cost...Thousands.
Maybe things have changed now at YMMA, maybe they have them now, I don't know. Every so often a new application is clearly
shown on the net, weather it is original or not? That isn't even important anyways because the app's are useless without the correct foundation and
spiraling integration of the body that is necessary to power them and even then, you must have a master directly teach them to you
first by showing them and then until it's installed in the body and they are not a One size fits all, it the whole picture.
The art is incredibly complicated to learn.