Reverse Breathing

[I-mon]

Who practices it? How long have you practiced it for, in what forms, for what purpose, and what do you feel you have gained from the practice? If the practice is linked to external body movements in your system, how is it done, and why?

For myself: I have recently started practicing it again on a daily basis. Compressing the lower abdomen on inhalation, relaxing it on exhalation. The compression of the abdomen during inhalation feels like it is strengthening the tissues of the abdominal walls, since they are being pushed outwards by the pressure of the descending diaphraghm and so they have to "wrap" extra hard to match that pressure. It's definitely helping me link the muscles of the abdomen and back with the deeper muscles of the pelvis, the ribcage, the diaphragm and abdominal walls, and to get better conscious control of those deeper muscles, a growing ability to contract and relax them in a more unified way and then use them to power movement of the rest of the body. Generally but not exclusively linking rising, pulling, and opening with the inhalation; sinking, pushing and closing with the exhalation. The internal muscle action links with the bowing and unbowing of the spine.

Anyone else?

[cgtomash]

Hi!

I just read your post and tried to think what I do... So I got up and did a couple of movements. I have never practiced reversed breathing, but find myself automatically doing it now when i do Tai Chi. I don't even think about it, it is just natural. When I am doing Tai Chi, when I breathe in my belly compresses, and when I breathe out my belly releases out. But if I stop and just breathe, then it is just normal breath... belly out with in breath and belly in with out breath.

I was told that it would occur naturally after practicing correctly for many years, and that to focus on breathing in the beginning would be more of a distraction to learning than a benefit for the student. I am not sure when the change took place, but the saying seems to hold true (for myself at least)!

[wiesiek]

I practiced >reverse b.< as the separate set years ago.
Right now when I`m doing R.B., it`s happens unintentionally during my standard qigong practice.
It is more stimulating than "normal" breathing,
Much easier to feel - the movin` dantian.

[cloudz]

Yea.. I use it in a number of solo drills as well as the natural breathing.

The internal muscle action links with the bowing and unbowing of the spine.

Yes, this has also been my experience. You can do it with natural breathing, but reverse breathing I think intensifies the whole experience and has more synergy with the body method. It seems to feel more powerful and 'right'..

In addition to that, I have also started to link it to dan tien (physical) 'rolling' along the frontal/vertical plane.
Rolling forward fits nicely with the spine 'opening' at the front, and rearward (up and back) rolling fits nicely with closing of the front.

My experience with form echo those of cgtomash. Some conscious input and experimenting at times, but often taking care of itself when you're not looking. Hard to explain really..

[greytowhite]

What I was taught recently from Kenny Gong's line of xingyibagua is a combination method of natural and reverse breathing that I found instantly activates the Macrocosmic Orbit. This is only going to work after significant time putting in the work of regular natural and reverse practices.

1. Inhale into lower dantian ala natural breathing, let lower abdomen expand.
2. Exhale slowly, allow chest to expand fully at about halfway through exhale.
3. Once half the exhale completes and chest is fully expanded continue exhaling but allow the chest to slowly deflate.
4. Allow breath to sink back to the lower dantian to complete the cycle, lower belly should expand slightly and the chest should be empty.

[Bao]

Reverse breathing is the same as what happens when pushing a car or a heavy object. Imagine it or try to do it. When you push and exhale the stomach pushes outward as a natural reflex. When you understand practical function of the movements in a tai chi form and practice them with the intent of proper use, then reverse breathing will come naturally and unforced. So reverse breathing is not really something that needs to be remembered or can be forgotten. It is a natural consequence from understanding and practice form with martial intent and with martial functionality. If you do the form as it should be done, you never need to focus on breath. Instead, you will be surprised that it's allready there and you are breathing properly without thinking about it.

[I-mon]

Yeah the pushing a car part of the reverse breath is the "natural" bit, but the lifting of the perineum and drawing the muscles of the abdominal walls and lower back inwards during inhalation is the more interesting part for me at the moment. Really nice workout/coordination/unification of all of those deep muscles. Pressurises the whole torso as well.

[Bao]

Ok, then I understand. What you speak about is a post-heaven aspect.

[Ron Panunto]

Yeah the pushing a car part of the reverse breath is the "natural" bit, but the lifting of the perineum and drawing the muscles of the abdominal walls and lower back inwards during inhalation is the more interesting part for me at the moment. Really nice workout/coordination/unification of all of those deep muscles. Pressurises the whole torso as well.

Exactly, and pull down the diaphragm at the same time. When using RB for fajin I like to think of being a Supernova, i.e., (non-gravitational) contraction of abdominal wall, lifting of perineum, closing the anus, pull in lower spine, pull down diaphragm all into a single point in the pelvic basin, and then to explode by exhaling, reversing everything previously contracted on the inhale. Another visualization that I use is to imagine the torso as a 2 cycle combustion engine. Your thoracic cavity (chest) is the cylinder and your diaphragm is a piston connected to the musculature in your abdomen/pelvic basin (the crankshaft). When you inhale, rotate the dantian so that it pulls the diaphragm/piston down (intake stroke of piston) continue rotating the dantian and the diaphragm/piston is forced up on the exhalation/power stroke.

I spend many hours practicing RB with microcosmic orbit imagery while highway driving. It's given me good lower back support, good abdominal support, and good breath control. In my opinion, it should be learned and practiced along with the opening and closing of the form postures. I don't go for the "just breath naturally and it will happen." Maybe for some folks, but not for most. I've been practicing RB for over 48 years now, and there have never been any physical or psychological problems as a result of it.

[wiesiek]

Have no problem ether, but i heard, that some problem may occur when doing it wrong way.../to much pressure w/o relaxing ?/
anyway my today view -
after workout with special attention on RB, I may point the "advantages" out:
- very easy spinal column wave induction during movin` DT in the vertical plane
- very strong "compression" when doin` turns
- fast induction of the "spontaneous" qigong

[GrahamB]

Reverse breathing increases the 'pressure' in the system. I believe that's its purpose.

If you think of trying to get a stretch on the 'suit' (from finger tips to toes) then the reverse breathing makes it easier to feel that stretch, and then instigate movement that is done by the whole body controlled by the dan tien, like a spider in the centre of a web.

[shawnsegler]

Reverse breathing increases the 'pressure' in the system. I believe that's its purpose.

If you think of trying to get a stretch on the 'suit' (from finger tips to toes) then the reverse breathing makes it easier to feel that stretch, and then instigate movement that is done by the whole body controlled by the dan tien, like a spider in the centre of a web.

Agreed. It also entrains the habit of synching the breathing out with release of power.

I spent a lot of time unsuccessfully trying to get reverse breathing online off and on for years until, just in the past few years, I've found it just happens at the appropriate time and trying to make it "the norm" for my breathing didn't work well and gave me headaches. The ability is there now and it seems to switch on at the appropriate times so I don't worry about it.

There was a lot of truth in that vid that was up recently of Guo Shi Lei discussing how most of the written info we have on internal arts is very advanced stuff that wouldn't have been introduced to til much later back in the day as it just gets in the way of the students development until they've opened their bodies and have enough sensitivity to actually have a real proprioceptive way of feeling "the dantien" or complex breathing patterns or qi, yi etc... They're important concepts but it really takes a lot of time for most people to realistically understand those things.

my 2c.

S

[Bhassler]

Between Feldenkrais, CMA, kettlebells, asthma, and a bunch of scar tissue in my sinuses from when I ate a trapeze bar during a bungee trapeze performance (good times), I can pretty much differentiate breathing from movement and exert force at any point in the breath cycle. I find I inhale when I need oxygen and exhale when I've gotten what I can from the current breath and am ready for some new air. It may not be optimal as far as IMA and a given method of force generation, but I haven't died, yet (or if I did, I haven't noticed). At this point I'm basically useless as far as any formalized movement methodology of any kind, let alone something as poorly understood by most teachers as respiration.

[I-mon]

Thanks for the interesting thoughts guys. Seems like there are quite a few different types of "reverse breathing" out there, so maybe we'd better be careful of thinking that any particular one is "correct".

Ron P, or anyone else who has done a deliberate reverse breathing practice for some time with pelvic floor contractions and whole-abdomen compression, do you feel like the practice has physically changed the tissues of the abdominal walls and pelvic floor? Obviously that would be impossible to measure, or to be sure that such changes were specifically the result of the reverse breathing, but I'm still curious about what changes people feel. Logically, knowing what we do about how connective tissue changes over time when tension forces are applied to it, we would expect the tissues wrapping the pelvic and abdominal cavities to become thicker, stronger, and more coherent (fibres more aligned so as to contract in a more unified manner) from an extended period of such a practice.

[shawnsegler]

Thanks for the interesting thoughts guys. Seems like there are quite a few different types of "reverse breathing" out there, so maybe we'd better be careful of thinking that any particular one is "correct".

Ron P, or anyone else who has done a deliberate reverse breathing practice for some time with pelvic floor contractions and whole-abdomen compression, do you feel like the practice has physically changed the tissues of the abdominal walls and pelvic floor? Obviously that would be impossible to measure, or to be sure that such changes were specifically the result of the reverse breathing, but I'm still curious about what changes people feel. Logically, knowing what we do about how connective tissue changes over time when tension forces are applied to it, we would expect the tissues wrapping the pelvic and abdominal cavities to become thicker, stronger, and more coherent (fibres more aligned so as to contract in a more unified manner) from an extended period of such a practice.

My assumption, from someone who's pretty "in their body" is that if there is any sort of physical change it's most likely due to increased proprioception, osmotic movement and small muscle development from use than from anything esoteric. Most people simply don't put their mind in the interior of their body and stagnation and lack of development is the result. The opposite is true for those who do mess about with their insides.

My 2c.

S