Strength Standards for MA

[Bhassler]

Dan John is a very famous strength coach who tends to write very reasonable things -- if you need to know who he is do a google search or go to http://danjohn.net/dan-john-bio/.

One of the reasonable things Dan writes about is strength standards. "Expected" is what a 'normally' strong person/athlete could reasonably do with little or no training when they walk in the gym. "Game Changer" is the level at which once a person hits all the standards, magically good things start to happen in their athletic performance (below are for men):

Push
Expected = Bodyweight bench press
Game-changer = Bodyweight bench press for 15 reps
Pull
Expected = 5 pullups
Game-changer = 15 pullups
Hinge
Expected = Bodyweight to 150% bodyweight deadlift
Game-changer = Double-bodyweight deadlift
Squat
Expected = Bodyweight squat
Game-changer = Bodyweight squat for 15 reps
Loaded Carry
Expected = Farmer walk with total bodyweight (half per hand)
Game-changer =Bodyweight per hand
Turkish Getup
One left and right, done with a half-filled cup of water balanced on the fist

These are for generic athletic performance- for a specific performance level in a specific sport, the standard can change greatly:

At the USOC training center, we were told that all you needed to have the strength levels for a world record throw in the discus was a 250 snatch, 300 clean, 400 bench and a 450 squat.

One aspect of the standards is that enough tends to be enough-- getting a 500 lb bench and a 600 lb squat is unlikely to help in the discus, for example.

So, the question is this:
What do folks think the standards are for their chosen MA?

I know if you want to do Chen style like they do in the village, you pretty much need at least a 5 min horse stance with hips at the level of the tops of the knees to even get in the game-- any less than that and you can't do the exercises. So that would be a standard for that brand of Chen taiji, and I have no idea what the game-changer would be.

[jaime_g]

One aspect of the standards is that enough tends to be enough-- getting a 500 lb bench and a 600 lb squat is unlikely to help in the discus, for example

Not exactly. The problem with strenght building is the diminishing returns thing. It's much easier and faster to build squat strenght from 0 to 450 lb that from 450 to 600 lb. If you arent doing powerlifting or weightlifting it isnt worth it. Yes, stronger would mean a better discus throw, but the harder recovery from advanced strenght training can hamper the whole thing.

In martial arts is the same...if you are training external. My squat strenght (beyond Dan John "game changer") helped me shit to train the internal body conditioning of Dan Harden. I dropped it.

[dspyrido]

So, the question is this:
What do folks think the standards are for their chosen MA?

Personally I don't see attribute testing being a lot of value. It does not mean we should ignore this training but that people who can skip, do 100s of pushups or cross fit their lives don't necessarily know how to fight.

I like the idea of strength attributes being tested in as near realistic approach to combat as possible. For example 10+ round matches with different opponents of 3-5min under amateur mma type rules is a great endurance test.

[David Boxen]

Doesn't make sense to me how Dan John's game changer for both push and squat are exactly the same.

For me personally, I'd say squatting strength and overhead strength are most relevant - double body weight and body weight respectively being the goal. I don't roll.

[BruceP]

Most real fighting is a sprint.

The amount of time a person is able to go full-blast while,
-being restrained,
-under attack,
-being chased,
-in pursuit,
determines their minimal performance standard in their Personal Combat.

I don't know much about strength training, per se, or how to optimize it while performing under the conditions listed above, but it might be best to explore Strength Standards for MA from that starting point.

[Doc Stier]

The standards I have trained to achieve over the past 55 years include developing and maintaining peak overall athletic condition, i.e. optimal relaxation, flexibility, balance, body control, rooting, etc, and the strength and endurance to seriously practice form sets, drills, standing, and seated meditation, totaling 4-6 hours daily. The additional use of regular running, biking, hiking and weight lifting is also intended to further those goals.

[dspyrido]

The standards I have trained to achieve over the past 55 years include developing and maintaining peak overall athletic condition, i.e. optimal relaxation, flexibility, balance, body control, rooting, etc, and the strength and endurance to seriously practice form sets, drills, standing, and seated meditation, totaling 4-6 hours daily. The additional use of regular running, biking, hiking and weight lifting is also intended to further those goals.

I think we should all aspire to the level you outline but would you consider the attainment of great athletic conditioning as a means of testing fighting ability?

I'm thinking more in line with instructor tests I've seen which include things like 100s of kicks or moves, techniques & callisthetics but sparring is restrained to one format whether it is pushing/sticking hands, point sparring or just rolling. Great physical attributes seem to break down when not trained under random pressure.

[Bhassler]

I really should have put "Fitness Standards" instead of Strength Standards. Fitness standards can include limit strength, but also endurance, flexibility, aerobic fitness, etc. I used Dan John's standards because they're clearly thought out and articulated, and also very much based on the results of training hundreds (thousands?) of athletes of many levels across decades. But as has been stated, they have nothing to do with MA per se.

Another way to look at it is if an old, fat, bald guy with a bunch of old injuries walks up to you and says "I want to learn your art for the realz", what do you need Fatty to be able to do in order to get to the serious training?

Doc-- you're basically (or maybe literally) a professional martial artist. What do want/expect for someone who wants MA to benefit their lives but not necessarily become their lives?

[BruceP]

Another way to look at it is if an old, fat, bald guy with a bunch of old injuries walks up to you and says "I want to learn your art for the realz", what do you need Fatty to be able to do in order to get to the serious training?

Well now we're talkin'.

"Hit me. No, I said hit me"

"Let's play tag - you're it"

"This is your medicine ball. I wanna use it but you don't like to share"

"This medicine ball is your most prized possession/new puppy. I'm gonna try to take it from you and I don't care if it gets broken/injured"

"You have to get out that door on the other side of the room and I'm going to try to stop you"

There are a few other one-on-one drills I've found useful for finding the truth of one's current fit-to-fight.

[wayne hansen]

havent seen this dan in the ufc

[I-mon]

He's a strength coach. He coaches people who want to get stronger. He is well respected internationally amongst other strength coaches and athletes - primarily olympic weightlifters, I believe.

I used to think that the kind of strength required for martial arts was entirely different to the kind of strength developed by lifting heavy things. Now, I think they're mostly quite different, but with a lot of crossover.

Taking up some basic strength training some years ago, with a 10+ year background in martial arts, I found that I made extremely rapid progress since the movements were relatively simple and easy to learn. Adding one 20 minute barbell session per week for about six months made me feel a lot stronger - just knowing how much heavy stuff you can lift changes the way your body feels - and it also helped me communicate with all sorts of people who are more familiar with that sort of training than the other less common things I do. The wrestlers and BJJers in my gym took a lot of interest in the fact that I was able to deadlift 2x my bodyweight (160kg) with only a few months of training once a week with the barbell, when they knew that most of my training was weird monkey-lizard stuff, capoeira angola and obscure Chinese martial arts.

So, I'm pretty happy with Dan Johns' strength standards, and feel like as a male in my 30's who trains martial arts and movement generally, I should be able to pick up a barbell any time and be somewhere around the "intermediate" standard for a trained lifter. It certainly shouldn't be our main thing, but it can be really helpful, and will often reveal some weaknesses and disconnects that we might not have been aware of. Even something like the much-maligned bench press, or simple pull ups or chin ups, can do wonders for switching on the muscles that connect the shoulder blades, the humerus, the ribcage and the spine. Bodyweight bench press (for one rep), double bodyweight deadlift, 1.5x bodyweight back squat, 0.75x bodyweight overhead press, are all pretty simple and achievable by anyone with just a bit of training, especially anyone who already has a bit of martial arts training under their belt. The best thing about barbell training or simple strength training generally, if it's used as a supplement to our primary training, is that it takes only a very small amount of time to get a huge amount of benefit.

[Ian]

Wellllll...

-The pound for pound strongest martial artist I know is Steve Morris. He says resistance training, whether bodyweight or iron, contradicts what martial artists need. A) the leverage is not specific to the event, and B) with resistance training, you're overcoming gravity and resistance, rather than working with gravity. It's neurally counterproductive, the wrong timeframe, tactically and technically unsound. I think I'll stick with this approach.

-In my anecdotal experience, guys who sacrifice martial training time for powerlifting, stunt work, rock climbing, gymnastics, bodybuilding etc. (e.g. 4 days of martial training / week vs. 6 days of martial training / week) always feel pretty average.

-Dan John isn't a martial artist, and I don't know how many high level martial artists he has coached. Of those he has coached, how many improved, and by how much?

[I-mon]

That's all totally valid, although I seem to recall you posting sometime in the past about how Tyson and Hollyfield both practiced the bench press, so it was good enough for you at that time.

I'm just of the opinion that healthy martial artists should at least be stronger than average people at most ordinary things. Doesn't mean you should be practicing barbell training all day long, but if you pick one up, learn a basic exercise, and you're significantly weaker than an average person for your current bodyweight, maybe you need to address that somehow in your training - not necessarily with a barbell.

Make sense? Substitute the word "barbell" for "bodyweight exercise" if you like, I'm not trying to push barbells here, but I do think "BASIC strength training" is something that can be overlooked by martial arts practitioners, especially those who believe they are practicing "advanced" or whatever special things.

I should probably also pre-emptively state that I'm not saying we need to add basic strength training from outside our arts, if our arts already contain supplementary practices for developing the basic strengths necessary to progress in the art - all those funny little pushups, squats, bends, apparatus training, heavy weapons work, etc.

Anyone who does those exercises will (should) find that they can pick up a barbell or other strenght tool and easily outperform an average person of their age and weight.

[Ian]

That's all totally valid, although I seem to recall you posting sometime in the past about how Tyson and Hollyfield both practiced the bench press, so it was good enough for you at that time.

I don't think that was me. If anything, I may've pointed out that Tyson sculpted his physique with "only" traditional boxing exercises and no weight lifting.

I'm just of the opinion that healthy martial artists should at least be stronger than average people at most ordinary things.

Well, you can't be a weed. But to me, the guys who preach standard powerlifting, calisthenics, gymnastics, rock climbing etc. etc. usually feel very average. It's a seductive but distracting and unrewarding tangent, IMO.

And every so often, don't you come across non-lifters who are just objectively stronger and more powerful than the lifters? That's always cool, and worth reflection.

Steve is massively MARTIALLY strong, so I'm happy with the path he recommends. IMO you should check out his isometrics dvds if you want to get stronger and more powerful in your bjj or wrestling

[marvin8]

http://www.8weeksout.com/

"Joel Jamieson is widely considered one of the world’s foremost authorities on strength and conditioning for combat sports, having trained many of the sports best athletes since 2004. He is the author of the bestselling book ‘Ultimate MMA Conditioning’ and is a contributing writer to several top magazines and a frequent guest speaker at conferences and seminars all over the world."

Starting @ 8:48, what kind of tests are you putting them through for the strength and conditioning side of things?

1. HRV (heart rate variability) score
2. Heart rate
3. 1 ½ mile run
4. Fighter conditioning tests
5. Basic power tests – squat, pull ups, etc.

When To Go Hard and When To Rest w/ MMA Strength Coach Joel Jamieson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y1l0Mf4gw8

CrossFit Games Champion vs. MMA Conditioning Test:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S2dpKDHRVA

Joel Jamieson, Kiefer joins us to discuss his thoughts on how to apply his carb backloading to sports nutrition. He'll tell you how he would use carb backloading with mixed martial artists to improve performance and body composition.

Also on the show is a nutritional roundtable with CrossFit Games Champion James Fitzgerald and Mark McLaughlin of Performance Training Center give their thoughts on how to eat to maximize performance. Nutrition is absolutely vital to performance and all areas of strength, conditioning and fitness. Hear what these fitness experts have to say about sports nutrition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUo1Plsplls