Brothers in arms – Rickson Gracie and Tai Chi

[GrahamB]

OK, so here's my latest magnum opus. Took me ages, so you better like it

Sadly, it's not about the seminal 1980's Dire Straits album, but instead it's a discussion of the similarities between BJJ and Tai Chi:

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... d-tai-chi/

[jaime_g]

I like it

Couple of points

Realistically, and practically, there is no need for the type of highly specialised and, frankly, difficult, method of moving the body that Tai Chi employs for actual fighting, and also it’s questionable whether you can actually do ‘silk reeling’ type movement when on the ground, since it relies on using the power of the ground to push up from via the legs. Does that mean one art is better than the other? Well, they both are what they are, and they’re good for different things. I’ll probably leave it at that.

Silk reeling when on the ground is possible, but even harder than when standing. Too much for me now, I would need a much better back bow

[windwalker]

Rumour has it that he also said he studied Tai Chi in a magazine interview, although I’ve not been able to find a transcribed version online to confirm this. Either way, it’s clear that he’s not adverse to stepping outside of “pure jiujitsu” to add elements to his exercise, martial and health regimes. The cost of upholding the reputation of JiuJitsu and the Gracie family has been heavy though, and he has several herniated discs in his back, but he’s still on the mats teaching his family art, cornering his son Kron in his MMA fights and giving instruction through his JiuJitsu Global Federation. He also spends a lot of time surfing these days, instead of fighting.

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... d-tai-chi/

makes one wonder considering

One year, a member of Gracie’s family from Brazil visited the park. Respect was exchanged between the two parties and the agreement on the rules were made. After three short rounds of free style pushing, Gracie went home with dirt on his back.

http://www.wuweitaichi.com/articles/Taipei_Report.htm

"I've posted this before"
someone noted the author passed away a while back " may he rest in peace"

There are different approaches to what is called "IP" as noted on the many threads here, some more mechanical then others.

“Try and do a Full Nelson on me”
Lifting Sagawa sensei onto my stomach, I found him fairly light, yet in the next instant I found myself fallen on the ground yet again with Sagawa standing on top of me. While I didn’t feel any noticeable power at the time, now that I think about it I do remember I did feel something, maybe power, travel through my stomach to the right and back, traveling down to the lower back, penetrate and cause me to fall down.

One day after practicing, Sagawa Sensei suddenly brought out a rolled up newspaper and told me “grab it.” The moment I grabbed it I fell down, and the same happened to the others that tried after me.

“This ability may seem strange, but you need to ponder why I can do such a “strange” skill. Because once <I> am gone it will be difficult to recreate this kind of skill. No amateur that puts power into his shoulders will ever be able to do this skill.”
http://transparentpower.com/

Whether one wants to believe the accounting or not I would think depends on whether they've met others who can do this.
I was called on this in another thread. "one has to feel it"
how else would any one understanding it, if its to far above their present practice?

In the taiji world its the same, not many make it to the point of being able to do what was written about of past masters.
what is called taiji is only a shape,,,,,that with practice with others who have this "strange" skill, will lead one to find it on their own.

[Greg J]

This a really, really, good article! I am looking forward to watching the videos you thoughtfully embedded in the piece.

My experience with Kali (Dog Brothers) and Tai Chi feels similar to yours. I found that while there was virtually no crossover between specific Tai Chi and Kali techniques, the things I learned from Tai Chi concerning full body movement and relaxing within movement did apply directly to my stickfighting.

Best,
Greg

[charles]

‘silk reeling’ type movement...relies on using the power of the ground to push up from via the legs.

This is a poor characterization of what "silk reeling type movement" is.

[GrahamB]

Thanks guys! This is turning into the most hits ever on my blog

[GrahamB]

‘silk reeling’ type movement...relies on using the power of the ground to push up from via the legs.

This is a poor characterization of what "silk reeling type movement" is.

Well, it's an offhand comment that's tangental to the actual point of the article, but....

No, I don't think it is.

I believe all "whole-body" pushes (or movements of the hands) should come from the feet. It's not a new concept, but silk reeling includes the idea that pressure is pushed down into the foot from the dantian as part of that power. That's what I meant.

[marvin8]

In your standup part, I would tend to take an opposite approach to standing square and root the push into the ground. Gracie being a grappler may want to stand square, more often.

However IMO, that makes you more vulnerable to strikes, kicks, etc. I would lean more towards a blade (give a smaller target), shield, control distance and mobility approach somewhat like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1WOUkj-NCM

Tai chi principles can still be followed by giving a perception of distance**, shifting weight, yielding, etc.

** See my post https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... a4dc1a732c, "How to Fight with Chinese Broadsword 18- Controlling Distance." Shameless plug.

[GrahamB]

In your standup part, I would tend to take an opposite approach to standing square and root the push into the ground. Gracie being a grappler may want to stand square, more often.

However IMO, that makes you more vulnerable to strikes, kicks, etc. I would lean more towards a blade (give a smaller target), shield, control distance and mobility approach somewhat like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1WOUkj-NCM

Tai chi principles can still be followed by giving a perception of distance, shifting weight, yielding, etc.

Hi Marvin,

Thanks - I wasn't advocating standing square as combat stance. The exercise is performed that way to make it harder to 'cheat' since you're very vulnerable to being knocked backwards when standing square. Essentially it makes it harder, so you have to do it right and your mistakes are more easily exposed.

[cloudz]

‘silk reeling’ type movement...relies on using the power of the ground to push up from via the legs.

This is a poor characterization of what "silk reeling type movement" is.

Well, it's an offhand comment that's tangental to the actual point of the article, but....

No, I don't think it is.

I believe all "whole-body" pushes (or movements of the hands) should come from the feet. It's not a new concept, but silk reeling includes the idea that pressure is pushed down into the foot from the dantian as part of that power. That's what I meant.

bleh, you're talking about "sinking". It's not a part of silk reeling per se, it's a part of the whole body method.

That goes for the guy who mentioned the bow too. Silk reeling doesn't implicate or use the bow either. These are separate things that come together for the complete package. But they can be used on their own too. Oh. yes. they. can. Bow comes into things when releasing or issuing.

Dan tien, now dan tien I would include in silk reeling. No real support or 'driver'/ strength to it without it.

[GrahamB]

George - silk reeling is whole body movement (in the context of internal Chinese martial arts). Whole body movement is silk reeling. No difference.

I knew this thread would get bogged down on a tangential point. C'est la internet.

[cloudz]

George - silk reeling is whole body movement (in the context of internal Chinese martial arts). Whole body movement is silk reeling. No difference.

I knew this thread would get bogged down on a tangential point. C'est la internet.

body method and body movement are not the same thing. And if you check I said "method".

I am talking about a bunch of methods that come together for the "whole" body method.... Yes I know the terms can get confused. But please try to understand what I am trying to say. I think I understand you, and I will repeat you don't need to sink to reel silk. But yes it is still a "whole body movement" and a "whole body method" in its own right, just not the complete set of methodology of TCC body mechanics/ shen fa - whatever-u-didgeridooda want to call it.

Your semantics are way too simplistic here.

Am I making sense yet?

People are sincerely trying to give input based on their understanding. Fuck tangential points. Shit happens.

Now for the back patting bit so I can appease you a little.
Well done for your article, not of huge interest to me as I have sampled both arts and can come to my own conclusions. But I applaud your efforts for your blog. As long as you and your readers enjoy it, that is what matters.

[BruceP]

G, I never take clickbait - especially blogs, so there may be other grammatical issues that need attention

- averse, not 'adverse'

- regimen, not 'regimes'

Always best to have someone else proof-read stuff

Love the ideas, though, and you're still my favorite martial artist

[cloudz]

bowing = whole body method/ movement
silk reeling = the same
sinking = the same

all in their own right. but bring them together, use them together.

when doing your tai chi form you may well be combining (should be) . However if you are going to single out a method such as silk reeling, then single it out. sinking is not required to train silk reeling: which is basically a bunch of different parts rotating their own way in unison. Like gears/ cogs if you like.

[cloudz]

Also,

I love that I get back chat about trying to talk IMA to you on an IMA board. Funny guy that you are.