Tongbei staff - reasons for length?

[jonathan.bluestein]

I have seen many Tongbei players use a staff that's about 4ft long (roughly 120cm). That is an interesting length - that of a short nodachi or miao dao, and a bit longer than a long katana. In Japanese martial arts that would be the length of a Jo, but in Chinese arts it seems to me that a more common length for a medium staff is Qimei ('Eyebrow Height'), which tends to be anywhere between 160-185cm, depending on how tall the practitioner is.

In my Pigua Zhang, the Qimei Gun provides a nice balance between sword-like wielding combined with classic 'shaolin type methods', and the longer reach and combat tactics of a spear. That is because the length falls right between that of a miao dao and that of a hua qiang.

I am interested in understanding why there is a choice of a length of about 4ft with the Tongbei gun. I can of course see the speed advantage. Yet, this is still too long for concealed or even semi-concealed carry. The Japanese Han-Bo (half-Bo) or its Chinese equivalent the Bang (stick) are essentially walking-stick weapons, but the Tongbei bang/gun is longer than that, yet shorter than the Qimei Gun.

[yeniseri]

It is very hard to find information on various aspects of CMA. I am guessing that in the old days, one had to be quiet, learn, get the piece of paper/scroll, become part of the status quo then be all that you are destined to be.
In lieu of that, one can learn as much you can, develop an alternate martial reality (system wise), add the Daoist terminology, the shamanistic spiritualty and become the One.

It appears that tongbei staff may be a transition weapon whereby one needn't learn every single weapon but it presents a basic weaaon hanndling template that could bridge other weapons use. It was very hard to get a background from my teachers of the past on why x or y weapons were longer or shorter than usual but my limited understanding has led me to see this type of training/conditioning as central to understanding other weapon use/utility.

[sinkpoint]

The videos are examples of "bian gan", or "whip sticks". They are popular in the north western regions. My guess is that it's a popular length for shepherds. The north western regions are dry and arid, and lacks extensive farming, so sheep herding is common, and their stick tend not to be too long. Also, in northern regions, it was popular for men (and women, it's a famous tradition of the region) to carry long pipes for smoking. The pipes were made with wood and metal, so would be very useful defensively.

The Ma family was impressived by the western whip-stick styles, and incorporated them into their style when they moved there. This was written in Ma Minda's articles and books. Ma's family tongbei style heavily influenced a lot of tongbei styles in China today, so bian-gan were often found in its off-shoots.

[kenneth fish]

That is a gan 杆 or a bang 棒. Usually measured from the middle of the user's chest. It is a convenient length for a walking stick or a pole for carrying baskets. Tongbei staff or gun棍 is generally about 6 feet in length. The techniques for gan杆 or bang棒 are not the same as those for pole or staff (gun棍)。 Tongbei also trains short stick or cudgel 短棍, a baton about the length from one's elbow to the tip of one's fingers.

Also note: Ma style Tongbei tong通備 is not the same as 通背。

[wayne hansen]

Right thoroughout Asia you will find short poles that fit between your arms with the palms turned so the touch Lao gung in each palm
This is what we call a double ended pole
It is the same length as a shoulder pole and can be found everywhere they carry baskets in this way

[Lu da]

From what I've been told it was the length of a walking stick. A person might find themselves in a situation where a sword was inappropriate but a walking stick was acceptable, under these conditions a person untrained with the use of a walking stick as a weapon may find themselves at a disadvantage. Wrapping the ends of the stick with brass sleeves made it even more formidable without being overtly dangerous.

[Wuyizidi]

I have seen many Tongbei players use a staff that's about 4ft long (roughly 120cm). That is an interesting length - that of a short nodachi or miao dao, and a bit longer than a long katana. In Japanese martial arts that would be the length of a Jo, but in Chinese arts it seems to me that a more common length for a medium staff is Qimei ('Eyebrow Height'), which tends to be anywhere between 160-185cm, depending on how tall the practitioner is.

In my Pigua Zhang, the Qimei Gun provides a nice balance between sword-like wielding combined with classic 'shaolin type methods', and the longer reach and combat tactics of a spear. That is because the length falls right between that of a miao dao and that of a hua qiang.

I am interested in understanding why there is a choice of a length of about 4ft with the Tongbei gun. I can of course see the speed advantage. Yet, this is still too long for concealed or even semi-concealed carry. The Japanese Han-Bo (half-Bo) or its Chinese equivalent the Bang (stick) are essentially walking-stick weapons, but the Tongbei bang/gun is longer than that, yet shorter than the Qimei Gun.

Within the Baiyuan Tongbei lineage at least, this staff is call Qi Li Bang. In Chinese martial art Gun (棍) is the long staff, whereas Bang (棒) is usually classified as short weapon. The length depends on the user. Like you pointed out, it should be same length as miao dao (and taiji dao), ie, up to your tanzhong point (CV17). Another traditional way is measuring it by the width of your hand: grip one end starting with left hand, then place right hand right next to it. The standard is 13.5 hand width.

The reason for the length of this staff then is same as that of miao dao and taiji dao: it's long enough to cover your foot without having to bending your waist. Basically every weapon need to be useful (at least try to be) against spear. The easiest way to defeat a shorter weapon with spear is to attack the feet first - the furthest point on the body for the opponent to defend. If the short weapon is not long enough, the opponent will have to bend at waist, then it's very easy to quickly flick up to attack the face. With waist bent, movement will be slowed.

The bang staff is popular with travelers because you can use it to carry bags and other luggage over your shoulder. A longer staff will bend easily on long trips, whereas a short staff can be thick/sturdy enough. With this length the short staff can also use some broadsword and jian techniques. Another popular modification involves mechanisms that allows you to easily, quickly attach a blade to the staff, turning it into a pu dao.

[wetmarble]

I am interested in understanding why there is a choice of a length of about 4ft with the Tongbei gun. I can of course see the speed advantage. Yet, this is still too long for concealed or even semi-concealed carry.

As already mentioned, this length of stick is often referred to as the whip stick. It is also known as the seven star stick or the heart high stick.
The techniques used with the whip stick differ significantly from those used with the staff. The whip stick does not have the same mass or reach that the staff has, so it does not have the same bludgeoning quality that the staff possesses. Rather, it is used more like a point striking stick. It is a very fast weapon capable of changing directions in an an instant and switching from using one end to the other. It is also very easy to conceal, as it can be held in one hand behind the back so that the body conceals the stick. It can then be brought up from below in an arc that simultaneously takes advantage of the natural blind spot in the eyes created by the optic nerve passing through the back of the retina and foreshortening the stick making the length very difficult to determine by the opponent. Once the stick has been revealed as a weapon, it moves very quickly, also making it difficult for the opponent to gauge the range of the weapon.

Typically it would be used as a walking stick, making it ubiquitous for every day usage, while still providing ample defense.

Our liang zhen pu style ba gua descended from li ziming has several whip stick forms. These same forms are very easily adapted for use with a cane.

[edededed]

"Heart high stick" (qixingan) sounds quite similar to "seven star stick" (qixinggan) - perhaps it is a misnomer? Originally, it was a bamboo staff that contained an amount of mercury, which changed its properties from "light stick" to "light stick with heavy power" - but of course mercury is highly toxic, so no-one keeps true qixinggan anymore. It's said that Dong Haichuan created 4 routines, but only passed down 3; some of few who learned 3 only passed down 2 to most students... I only have 1!

I've not heard of any biangan routines in Liang style persay - but there are some guaizi (crutch) routines and some staff (gun) routines and paired exercises.

[wetmarble]

"Heart high stick" (qixingan) sounds quite similar to "seven star stick" (qixinggan) - perhaps it is a misnomer? Originally, it was a bamboo staff that contained an amount of mercury, which changed its properties from "light stick" to "light stick with heavy power" - but of course mercury is highly toxic, so no-one keeps true qixinggan anymore. It's said that Dong Haichuan created 4 routines, but only passed down 3; some of few who learned 3 only passed down 2 to most students... I only have 1! :D

I've not heard of any biangan routines in Liang style persay - but there are some guaizi (crutch) routines and some staff (gun) routines and paired exercises.

Heart High Stick makes sense, as the stick should be measured to Ren-17 (dan zhong), which is at the level of the heart. Seven Star Stick also makes sense, as the seven stars are a common motif in Chinese culture. I have heard that the stick was bamboo and hollow and contained mercury as well, which is part of why the name is whip stick, as the mercury moving from one end to the other creates a whipping action. I don't have a source for the mercury information, and I personally think that it would be difficult to create and maintain such a weapon, so I'm skeptical that it ever existed in that form.

I'm curious where you heard that Dong created 4 whip stick forms and passed down 3. which were distilled to 2. I'll ask my teacher where our forms come from. I know that we have at least 2 distinctly different forms. The first is quite short, but rich in detail nonetheless. The second is longer and was distilled from an even longer form that my teacher learned.

[edededed]

"Heart high stick" (qixingan) sounds quite similar to "seven star stick" (qixinggan) - perhaps it is a misnomer? Originally, it was a bamboo staff that contained an amount of mercury, which changed its properties from "light stick" to "light stick with heavy power" - but of course mercury is highly toxic, so no-one keeps true qixinggan anymore. It's said that Dong Haichuan created 4 routines, but only passed down 3; some of few who learned 3 only passed down 2 to most students... I only have 1!

I've not heard of any biangan routines in Liang style persay - but there are some guaizi (crutch) routines and some staff (gun) routines and paired exercises.

Heart High Stick makes sense, as the stick should be measured to Ren-17 (dan zhong), which is at the level of the heart. Seven Star Stick also makes sense, as the seven stars are a common motif in Chinese culture. I have heard that the stick was bamboo and hollow and contained mercury as well, which is part of why the name is whip stick, as the mercury moving from one end to the other creates a whipping action. I don't have a source for the mercury information, and I personally think that it would be difficult to create and maintain such a weapon, so I'm skeptical that it ever existed in that form.

I'm curious where you heard that Dong created 4 whip stick forms and passed down 3. which were distilled to 2. I'll ask my teacher where our forms come from. I know that we have at least 2 distinctly different forms. The first is quite short, but rich in detail nonetheless. The second is longer and was distilled from an even longer form that my teacher learned.

Li Ziming wrote a short essay when he was alive about what he knew about the seven star rod (staff), and his experiences learning it. Others in the Liang style have written similar pieces about it, such as Zhang Quanliang (Li's disciple, prolific book and DVD author) and Zang Xuefan (from Guo Gumin's line; you can read an English translation of this one here: http://www.smilingtiger.net/7star.htm). Actually, a lot of Li's article is quite similar with this last article, minus Li's experiences, thoughts, etc. In these articles, the seven star staff is said to be a total of 163 cm - making it longer than a typical biangan (up to the heart), I think, but not quite as long as a typical qimeigun staff (up to the eyebrows). But on the other hand, the measurements are converted from chi and cun, so perhaps the conversion is not set in stone. As for the mercury, who knows? I've certainly not seen an actual qixinggan with mercury inside, but I was told that some people still keep original qixinggan in Beijing (but without the mercury). Li's essay mentions at the end that he thought the qixinggan might have been developed from instruments of punishment made of bamboo staves that contained mercury, used by the Qing palace, due to their hurting more than wooden sticks - so perhaps Dong adapted the weapon from those.

Although the 3 (remaining) sets are not taught widely, the quanpu for them is quite widely distributed on the Web We can see that each of the routines has 32 named movements (but actually, one "movement" often contains several movements or repetitions).

[wetmarble]

My teacher learned the form from Zhang Huasen, who presumably got it from Li Ziming. I would love to compare notes some time.

[Ron Panunto]

In my experience, whips/staffs come in the following lengths: elbow to fingertip; ground to hip; ground to armpit; ground to eyebrow; and ground to fingertip of arm extended upwards. There are systems that have one or more forms for every length/height.

[wetmarble]

This is one of the li ziming seven star staff forms from Li Ziming's 100th birthday celebration (at 1:26:10). This seems to be the first of the three lines based on the videos I've seen of Li Ziming performing the routines and based on Joseph Crandall's book.

[edededed]

I'd love to compare notes, too!

I've never seen any videos of Li Ziming doing qixinggan - are those videos (or bits of them) available to view? Something is wrong with my YouTube today, so I can't see the video you linked (well, I can't run it), but I remember viewing it - yeah, it looks similar enough to my routine so that I think it is the 1st routine, too, although there are a lot of differences as well (the young man performs a bit like a robot!).