Plucking Up The Back: is poor posture necessary?

[Wuyizidi]

Nice! Wuyizidi it's always great to read your posts.

One thing of importance I have found is simply don't over do it. These things are meant to be 'fine'.. So coming back to the chest it's ok to feel a bit of suction sometimes - the front is yin and draws in - toward the dan tien makes sense (similar in ILC), but all these things are little tiny(micro) feeling this is enough to round the back a little and feel 'the expansion'.. melting nipples, wonderful!

My point is usually any major issues would be the result of putting too much force into it and or over doing it in some way. Maybe at the start over exaggerating can help as these things can be unusual and take time to get used to, but you do have to watch it.

You're very welcome. Yes, it's like what master always say about qi gong practice: don't help (try to force it) but don't forget. Just having that thought in our minds will cause 'micro' adjustments in the body that combined together makes a big difference.

[Bugang]

There seems to be Debate about if Kyphosis in general is "pathological" or "normal".
Well it's both!
The Spine has several functions - from sports-/medicine point of view - one of which is shock absorption. To function correctly it can't be completely straight (think of a spring which is not straight but it's use lies in its diagonal parts). So every human being has upper back Kyphosis and lower back Lordosis.
There exists however excessive Lordosis and Kyphosis. This can be seen as "pathological" if the person loses ability to regain "normal" K/L.
But for the question of K/P being unhealthy or not has a lot to do with "where it comes from". Very often, if not mostly - and this is the "unhealthy case" both come from several forms of muscular dysbalance especially in the psoas muscles; if they are shortened and unflexible, the pelvis will tilted forward (it's a convention different for some, what rotation you call forward of backward: here I mean if the person is standing in front of you looking to the left, the pelvis is rotated counterclockwise - we teachers all know these postural problems) which, as a countermovement makes the Lordosis more curved/"worse" wchich in turn malkes the Kyphosis worse. In this (and some other) kind of situation, excessive Kyphosis is a severe health problem that probably will cause wore things like spinal disc herniation.
So excessive Kyphosis is very often a Symptom of some other healt related problems, and -surprise ! - in these cases the person tends to be unhealthy.
If ("excessive") Kyphosis is NOT a Symptom of other health issues and the person is still flexible to strighten the back in normal day activities, ist is not a problem at all. See also what I am going to write next.

[Bugang]

Regarding Yang Style principles:
cloudz thanks for what you wrote, I think it hits the nail
I just wanna add that my Yang teacher has a rounded back while doing the form but afterwards he always shows the straightest Back you can think of. I have to admit some of my seniors who take traing very seriously have a bit of a hunched back. But I didn't know them before they had 15+ years of training, so no proof it comes from overdoing Yang Style principles.
But to go back to those who should know a bit besster than these students, I remember my Teacher speaking in awe of his teacher and saying several times: "In normal life, his back was abslutely like the common guy. But the moment he started to do the form it was as if his back got double size from before". I wish I had seen this, but I have seen the difference between "normal" posture and the one while doing the form (and pushing) in my Teacher (I am not going to get into Lineage discussion, forget it ) and the way he "fans" his back is - let's say: impressing to sometimes frightening.
Point short: You CAN have "hunched-like looking" posture in form and very upright posture during all other times. Which insures it's not unhealthy.

[Bugang]

Addition to my post about healthy/unhealthy Kyphosis.
My Opinion (just from experiencing the look of Teachers and fellow students and also my own students) is that those who have excessive Kyphosis as a Symptom of other health issues look less attractive than those who willingly can make their Kyphosis more or less obvious.
(Just for those wondering about those kind of things

[cloudz]

Yea, good stuff. I think you're hitting the nail on the head mate. the back does round and expand/ fan out. (to me ) the rounding though is more horizontal than vertical if that makes sense.

Don't know if you have looked into any of the |Yang snake style stuff coming down from Ip Tai Tak but it ties in well with the reverse breathing method I found and that torso method generally. I find that has a similar effect on the upper torso. Perhaps more pronounced than "normal"..

The whole 'paranoia' over kyphosis I find pretty odd in general though. Sure, in my early days I think I overdid things on the 'closing' side for a bit before I was corrected, but yeah.. better now hopefully

cheers, and thanks for the kind note.

[yeniseri]

To be radical here, one does not need to worry about "plucking the back".
Just be natural as you can be, keeping in mind that as long as health, posture awareness and well being (social and psychological) elements, one is ahead of the game.

Obviously, if one is not aware of "bad posture" and there exists some hereditary or other impact on the back, then there will be posture problems,

[Bao]

Check the interview with He Jinghan on the video section. There's a couple of clips here with the best explanation on the web about the original meaning of "Han xiong ba bei" (sink chest, pluck back). As I have said many times, this saying has absolutely nothing to do with a static position. It's about mobility and an active use of the scapula, and the ability to draw strength from the back. Good to see someone actually teaching it the old way and not just the common misconception.

[Bao]

To be radical here, one does not need to worry about "plucking the back".
Just be natural as you can be, keeping in mind that as long as health, posture awareness and well being (social and psychological) elements, one is ahead of the game.

It has nothing to do with doing nothing or doing what common people feels is "natural". It's very much the opposite. It's something that really needs to be practiced to become "natural". It has to do with a certain type of practice and use of the body which is normally kept from public teaching. Watch the clips mentioned.

[cloudz]

will do Bao, been looking forward to it, now more so
Master He is a very generous teacher.