Plucking Up The Back: is poor posture necessary?

[everything]

He is literally talking about qi flow, qi getting stuck and sinking qi to dantian. As a small step, if you experiment via slight variation of your posture, you will likely find the feeling is different.

*I don't know about peerless boxer and all that, though. I don't think you can beat Fedor or Rousey with any particular feeling or spine shape.

[amor]

I'm not really sure what success you are trying to achieve, or why you only sporadically achieve it. If you want to start a new thread about what you are asking, I'll be happy to comment on it, as others likely will too.

Had a bit more of a think on this and the best way I can describe what I am doing is the idea of Beng and Deng with the legs when doing open/close phase of postures. You are probably familiar with this and so you can appreciate how easy it is for the body to fall out of alignment and then there is no point in exerting yourself. Apart from the risk of twisting vertebrate out there is also a risk of ripping your ligaments up if you not aligned. it's very difficult, very very difficult and this is just the basics.

[charles]

Had a bit more of a think on this...

New thread, please, so as not to hijack this one.

[I-mon]

Rather than all arguing the 'real' meanings of things, why not take a look at some of the famous Tai chi adepts and what they have done with their own posture through training.

Chen Man Ching - Head slung out in front in most video we see of him, collapsed chest and thoracic curvature



Huang Sheng Shyan - Clearly exaggerated Thoracic curvature, some would say a worsening case of Kyphosis as he aged.



Dong Ying Jie - Collapsed Chest and upper back curvature



Yang Cheng Fu himself - much less exaggerated but still present. especially when compared to his younger self.



Now we could say that these images are the result of aging, being overweight ... whatever really ... but then we have to have a look at people like this and wonder why his spine was so straight even in his advanced years ...



Personally I would like to be like the last image when i am an old man ... and like none of the rest.

Thanks
Chris.

But Chris those are static photographs, still shots, there's no reason to assume that they kept their spines like that throughout. I've seen quite a few skilled dudes doing their taiji (xingyi, bagua, xinyiliuhe, tongbei, liuhebafa etc) with massive changes in their spines from full elongation to massive kyphosis, during particular movements.

[yeniseri]

Taijiquan posture isn't different from/than 'normal' postural integration!
As long as there is continuity of proper practice, proper posture, etc they all are in the same realm of fitness and wellbeing when applied accordingly.

[middleway]

But Chris those are static photographs, still shots, there's no reason to assume that they kept their spines like that throughout. I've seen quite a few skilled dudes doing their taiji (xingyi, bagua, xinyiliuhe, tongbei, liuhebafa etc) with massive changes in their spines from full elongation to massive kyphosis, during particular movements.

I completely agree mate. Spine mobility during expression of their art is one thing, set posture is another.

No there is no reason to assume this, but we don't have too ... we can take this out of the Static picture format and into video and it remains.

For instance:



is a very different posture to :



thanks.

[Marko]

I was always intrigued by Wan Lai Sheng. According to all accounts, he was a formidable fighter with unusual power. That said, I must say that his movements don't look to me connected in the way we usually talk about them in other internal arts. That doesn't say much at all, as I'm still a beginner and not all that good in spotting the telltale signs of connected movement, and as the saying goes it has to be felt Which I do hope to do with both Alex Kozma and Serge Augier at some point down the road.

Coming back to the topic, can we be sure that what we see in these videos is actually kyphosis? Aside from Huang, whose upper back does seem to be excessively curved, can it be possible that what Chris is calling upper back curvature as a result of an overly curved thoracic spine, is in fact thickening of the tissues in the back and not something to do with the actual spine? Comments about He Jinghan's pronounced J curved spine comes to mind. I always thought that his lower spine is not so much curved outward as his glutes are massive so it seems that way.

The translations of the Yang Cheng Fu's 10 admonitions are so vague that the action can easily be misinterpreted. I do agree with cdobe that the plucking up of the back should be stretching the thoracic spine upwards not curving it back. At least that's how I was taught in Ip style taiji (suspending the head, raising the back, and loosening the waist has to bring bai hui and hui yin points in line). Even then, it shouldn't be actual stretching with the muscles, but the stretch is passive and comes as a result of pulling silk (which was made clear to me by Bodywork).

Cheers,
Marko

[Ah Louis]

Great responses, the OT is about dictums concerning theories and principles in Yang Taiji that may seem medically harmful to the practitioner, but with a closer look there is no harm. Kyphosis is a medical term used to identify a curve in the spine. Here is the definition of kyphosis from the AAOS American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons "Some degree of rounded curvature of the spine is normal. The term kyphosis is used to describe the spinal curve that results in an abnormally rounded back." I am sure chronic kyphosis as a result of Yang Taiji can happen as seen in photos throughout the thread. Acute kyphosis, maintained during practice is also harmless. The result of self-imposed kyphosis from slight to moderate from the practice of Yang Taiji doesn't develop into or is a disease, despite the attractive posture that leads a person to make that assumption.

Yang's dictum of plucking up the back is an essential part of Yang Taiji as demonstrated in the translated quote in the OT post. Therefore, it would reason for those who wish to follow the Yang Taiji model seeking its benefit will strictly observe the posture from slight to moderate. And thus, by doing so is not harming the body. I would say acute and moderate at the most is the way to go for most of us practitioners

*Acute; relating to short course as in class practice.

[everything]

Don't do anything medically harmful or a bad posture. All of the "spine alignment" line of questioning is a red herring. There's nothing wrong with talking about posture as a topic but no one is advocating deliberately poor posture. Where do people get these crazy ideas? He is talking about the energy aspects (so that qi can sink, qi gets stuck, qi can stick) not Mike Tyson's excellent peek a boo or aerobics-style yoga. Then again, we know 99.999% of all taijiquan is well so if one wants to listen to some of these folks ymmv


Mike was certainly a peerless boxer but does not want anyone walking around hunched over.

[Ah Louis]

Thumbs up! Thanks for the post "everything."

[wayne hansen]

I think huangs posture has more to do with his white crane than his tai chi

[Marko]

I think huangs posture has more to do with his white crane than his tai chi

While I agree in that his back is unlike any I've seen among the masters of taijiquan, I can also say that I've not seen many white crane masters with such backs. It might be that the actions of those two style combined produced it, or that Huang did something of his own making, but I don't think it's due to taiji. In fact, from my own experience, practice of Yang style solve the slight kyphosis I have had since school days caused by poor posture while studying.

[Ah Louis]

Since the thread is drifting somewhat to be plucking up or not to be plucking up, here are some videos where you can see plucking up the back is done by those noted as Yang Taiji masters and direct students of Chen Fu Yang (all except the last video). For some it maybe debatable the legitimacy linage, it is clear they all are taiji practitioner during Chen Fu Yang's lifetime. The value here is the time period of when they learned taiji that gives the indication of the back being plucked up. The last film is a bit more contemporary to the other videos, but here again the age of the master (for better or worse) indicates the time frame of when he learned he too shows plucking up the back. All the videos show plucking up of the back a.k.a kyphosis or curving the back.

[Ah Louis]

Not to overload one post with videos here is another fine Master who plucks up the back. I am adding a Wu taiji style video and another of other ICMA. Below those 2 more videos of more contemporary practitioners all for comparison. I think at this point these videos solidify something very interesting.







The following more contemporary instructional videos seem to have no plucking up of the back. Their spines for the most part are always straight.

[cloudz]

I'm pretty sure that last clip has been mistitled - in your second to last post.. (combat tutorial)
I have that VCD and it's Northern Wu style IIRC.