Plucking Up The Back: is poor posture necessary?

[Ah Louis]

Yang Cheng-fu (1883 - 1936) famously said, "Sink the chest and pluck up the back. The chest is depressed naturally inward so that the ch'i can sink to the tan-t'ien [field of elixir]. Don't expand the chest: the ch'i gets stuck there and the body becomes top-heavy. The heel will be too light and can be uprooted. Pluck up the back and the ch'i sticks to the back; depress the chest and you can pluck up the back. Then you can discharge force through the spine. You will be a peerless boxer."

If you are a die hard Yang style practitioner it is an absolute to "pluck up the back." Yet, I have see enough Chinese Yang style students and masters develop chronic kyphosis as a result of following Yang's dictum.

What is the forum's thoughts. To what degree should the plucking up the back should be, slight, moderator, or to the degree of kyphosis? I will refrain at this point from giving my opinion, so to read responses and experiences from others.

[D_Glenn]

Han Xiong Ba Bei
Hollow Chest, [imagine someone is] pulling/ plucking [out the] Back [of your ribcage]

Concave the front of the ribcage, but expand open the back of the ribcage so that the lungs and heart still have the same amount of room.

The correct translation and understanding of the physical requirement has nothing to do with the thoracic vertebrae or kyphosis.
It's more about flexibility of the sternum to ribs and the scapula and to develop more flexibility and mobility in both sternum and scapula but following this rule so that while they're moving to and fro they are never compressing the lungs and heart, and through the practice one's whole ribcage will actually be expanded, or larger than it was previously.
.

[Michael Babin]

If you mimic the posture of an old man; it's too easy to prematurely look and act like an old man. I have seen it often enough in long-term practitioners.

Being too straight and too stiff is no better.

Posture, like many issues, has no easy answers as to what is best except to avoid consciously deforming yourself in search of elusive martial promises

Judging by the photos of him in his later years, Yang Cheng-fu was the last role-model for physicality that anyone would want to quote; unless you are a firm believer in "Do as I say, not as I do."

[charles]

Many who interpret this statement seem to believe the chest and back are held in a single static state or posture. Instead, the chest and back continuously alternate between opening and closing and the length of the spine bowing and un-bowing.

[lazyboxer]

What Charles said.

People have been compromising their health for years, sometimes even to the point of wrecking it, by following the bad advice of many who for one reason or another misinterpret the TJ Classics, yet are still accepted as authorities. Sad.

If it doesn't feel lively, flexible and natural, best move on somewhere else.

[willie]

mechanics are very important
relax the stomach
hips back
maintain ding
open close
but what is the most important part is the least discussed.
taiji is a supernatural art. the qi is cultivated and dispersed throughout the body. amazing.

[Bao]

Ah Louis, why do you believe that the concept means bad posture?

[Ah Louis]

Ah Louis, why do you believe that the concept means bad posture?

Good question, I didn't say it was bad, referring to my title I used the term "poor posture" as the medical community states it as bad posture. In my post, I just described the posture using a medical word. By using "poor" and "kyphotic" I was only using terms that reflected the most effective, familiar and concise for means of accurate communication. I wasn't indicating by the use of the terms the posture being bad. Thank you for asking the question and allowing me to expand upon it.

[amor]

Many who interpret this statement seem to believe the chest and back are held in a single static state or posture. Instead, the chest and back continuously alternate between opening and closing and the length of the spine bowing and un-bowing.

Can you describe more about this opening/closing in terms of scapula movement on the ribcage which I think is involved alot with opening closing, if possible.

But on thread OP plucking up the back I think refers to the point when the lumber straightens out and the thoracic hinge separates then real open/close can start to occur which leads into cross-body connection etc.

[cdobe]

In Yang Chengfu's own book Taijiquan's Application Method [太極拳使用法] this method is explained a little more clearly than in his 10 important points for practicing. I know that the book wasn't actually written by Yang, but he allowed his name to be associated with it, so its reasonable to assume that this represents his teachings.

In the section where the preparation posture (before doing the form) is explained it is written:
[...]頭宜正直內含頂勁眼向前平視胸微內含脊背拔起不可前俯後仰[...]
The head should be upright (straight and vertical), internally contain and prop up strength (jin), eyes look forward horizontally, the chest is held in minutely, the spine is lifted/pulled up (拔) and raised (起), you should neither be bend forward nor bend backward ("backwards facing up").

This passage makes the meaning of ba (拔) very clear. The first dictionary entry is "pull out" and people assume that it means pulled backwards. When you take a look at the usage by Chinese people, you will find that they think of grabbing something on one end and pulling on it. For instance, you grab a carrot by the leaves and pull it out of the ground. It also can mean lift or raise. If you look at the next word 起 (to rise up, grow), the meaning becomes very clear in Chinese. The two words put next to each other take away the ambiguity of what kind of action is described here. If you need further proof, look at the beginning of the sentence (again, typically Chinese). The physical description of what you should do with your chest and spine is an explication of the terms from the Taijiquan classics han 含 and ding 頂. What they are saying is that ding from the classics means pulling up and raising of the spine.
What Charles described is the movement of the spine in opening and closing, which is not described here. What they talk about here is just the stretching of the spine upwards.

[Interloper]

Yang Cheng-fu (1883 - 1936) famously said, "Sink the chest and pluck up the back. The chest is depressed naturally inward so that the ch'i can sink to the tan-t'ien [field of elixir]. Don't expand the chest: the ch'i gets stuck there and the body becomes top-heavy. The heel will be too light and can be uprooted. Pluck up the back and the ch'i sticks to the back; depress the chest and you can pluck up the back. Then you can discharge force through the spine. You will be a peerless boxer."

If you are a die hard Yang style practitioner it is an absolute to "pluck up the back." Yet, I have see enough Chinese Yang style students and masters develop chronic kyphosis as a result of following Yang's dictum.

What is the forum's thoughts. To what degree should the plucking up the back should be, slight, moderator, or to the degree of kyphosis? I will refrain at this point from giving my opinion, so to read responses and experiences from others.

If you understood the mechanics behind what was being said, you'd know that "sinking the chest and plucking up the back" are not the result of conventional body mechanics and, in fact, strengthen the structure.

These sayings are famously vague.

[Wanderingdragon]

No, plucking up the back is actually good posture, its merely involves pointing your head to the sky.

[Michael Babin]

I have used the analogy of the head lifting in proportion to the feet settling down into the earth as if the body was a punching bag connected to the ceiling with a spring and to the floor with a rubber strap. If the connections are too tight at the top or at the bottom; the bag won't hang properly and/or moves listlessly or is too stiffly fixed in place when struck.

Tim Cartmell has used a very nice analogy of feeling as if the top of the back of the head is suspended lightly to a helium balloon that "floats" the head up [with apologies if I have mis-quoted or over-simplified his good advice].

The "pulling-out" feeling explained by cdobe in the spine is also a good analogy and I have seen it likened to the way in which one has to have a lengthening feeling to pull a sword from it's scabbard as a Chinese sword is removed from its scabbard properly by pulling the scabbard itself as much as withdrawing the blade. This two-way use of force certainly seems relevant to extending the spine itself in gentle terms. Of course, one also has to compress what one has extended without overdoing that... while coordinating with the opening and closing of the shoulders/arms... the rotating of the Kua... etc., etc..

[Ah Louis]

The medical community tells you the right posture isn't kyphosis, it is not the ideal, and is sorted with several other postures seen as medical maladies. Kyphosis of modest severity can be an desirable posture reflecting a physical deformity or disfigurement. The related common term is hunchback, a very unflattering term reflecting the posture is unattractive. Yet, in some cases kyphosis can be perceived differently if the person is highly attractive as in this model's photo https://56.media.tumblr.com/817ca7bb75d6153cf8cc5e9e4b59d608/tumblr_muiz55aQXv1rbyhofo1_540.jpg). Or if kyphosis has purpose as in Yang Taiji as Yang Cheng-fu had described seen as desirable. For some in YT (Yang Taichi) the evidence of serve kyphosis is a sign of mastery and expertise.

Sometimes a little knowledge is dangerous. The plucking up of the back is a posture that places the spine arguably in kyphosis is seen as a medical aliment that is advised by the medical community should be avoided. Hence, the PUB (plucking of the back) is a posture that should be avoided as it leads to a chronic deformity of the spine. But, having such a spine configuration really harmful to a person's health. How harmful is acute kyphosis. i.e. in training from slight to sever?

The YT community as seen in many of these posts supports the idea PUB and it's benefits and essential to YT. Many long term practitioners, like my master, who is a medical professionL maintains a moderate chronic kyphosis. And so do others I know, such as a surgeon friend of mine, who also maintains a moderated self imposed kyphosis saying it has no ill or adverse effects on his health. It is my opinion as unattractive and undesirable kyphosis is, it is not a serious health or medical condition. If chronically severe it causes pain, or weakens spinal bones with those suffering from osteoporosis.

Moderate kyphosis in YT isn't a medical severe condition and can be easily corrected. The benefits of kyphosis to the YT community and to the art itself and for the serious practitioner out weight the negatives of a curved spine. If someone does suffer from kyphosis treatments the options are, over the counter pain reliever, physical exercise, back brace, physical therapy and some severe cases spinal surgery. My understanding of what defines severe Kyphosis would seem to make it really difficult to practice YT. If a person develops pain as a result of a kyphotic spine due to PUB, it would be a good idea to seek medical advice and treatment. Medical information says acute kyphosis being slight to severe during practice isn't going to harm a healthy person. And chronic kyphosis isn't a requirement for many of us YT practitioners, but it tends to be a constant posture taken on by some. Most people practicing YT are not seeking to be peerless boxers. In terms of the ideal PUB, its interpretation, practice and model does vary greatly, so I don't offer an idea model. And I am not giving medical advice.

[willie]

Many who interpret this statement seem to believe the chest and back are held in a single static state or posture. Instead, the chest and back continuously alternate between opening and closing and the length of the spine bowing and un-bowing.

I would say that this is correct.
the overemphasizing of these movements is a important step or exorcise toward having martial abilities.
later the movements are a little more natural.
So nice post Charles. Reviewing some of your other comments though, I think it would be appropriate
to ask you if you have any martial?
You said that laojia has no mechanics and then deleted that post then you say that the applications are
a dime a dozen, meaning worthless. when my app's have already cost a few grand, So at that price of 10 cents per dozen
you must have acquired hundreds or even thousands of app's. so I was just wondering if you had any video's on these
10 cent per dozen martial applications, or do you only have the exorcises mainly intended for health.
Thanks.