Can You Use Qinna???

[Dmitri]

What format of sparring?

Just friendly (stand-up) sparring, with everything allowed -- but nobody trying to kill anybody...

If you are told that the only way you can apply a hold is on the ground & you believe it & you are not really allowed to do these moves standing then guess what - self fulfilling prophecy fulfilled.

Not told anything; not believing anything; no prophecies over here of any kind. These conclusions are directly from my personal experience, for better or for worse. Even the very best moves would only work the first couple times, and once the opponent knew they were possible -- they weren't anymore. And then there was this one guy who was so ridiculously flexible that even the craziest wrist locks wouldn't work on him. Like he could bend his hand backwards to where his fingernails almost touched his forearm. Only one of two things worked on him, and of course, again, once he was aware of them -- they no longer did.

here are a few examples of qinna related moves

The first one is a ballistic move, I addressed that in my first post.
The second one falls into the 2% I was talking about (which are basically all standing chokes, which there are only a handful).

We seem to be in agreement on the rest of what you wrote.

[yeniseri]

When applied from the gitgo (early in the game) it tends to be useless. Plus, is rare to find a good teacher who actually uses a teaching methodology to instruct in the basic steps of achieving skill in use if qinna!

[wiesiek]

The problem i see here is that I have broken wrists and an elbow when working as a doorman and none of those breaks stopped the guys. The adrenaline/drugs made them fight through it.

Excellent points. But then what worked for you in those situations?

well
break the leg, dammed

[Ba-men]

Everyone should know you don't chase a chin-na.

who uses Chin na specifically?

Doesn't everyone use it to generate a threat.. thus "making" a Cause and Effect senario? I do.

IF..... (big word) it presents itself.... and "if" I can get the initiative and attach... i.e sieze... usually the opponent's defence will set something else up (if I can't get the chin na) ... a strike, throw etc..

Of course maintaining the initiative is the key...

[Bhassler]

.

[Dmitri]

As a "method for teaching" -- yes, absolutely

[wiesiek]

ah, forgot to answer, : dont`t know,
didn`t engage in the sparring last 20 years, even more in the fight.
ps
didn`t trained intensively in this area.

[meeks]

The "explosive" part, again as I mentioned, is no longer a qinna, by definition; it's one of the attacks that can come after a successful qunna (i.e. "seize and control").

why is that? I can apply locks that break something in the joint by the end of its execution. how is it no longer qin na? Yes - the 'translation' of it is simply 'seize' partnered with the word 'control' but we don't have to take it so literal when translated into English - essentially it is the ability to lock a joint. what you do with it from there is still considered an aspect of qin na if you tear their tendons or break a bone/dislocate the joint completely.

[Dmitri]

My understanding is that the "result" of a qinna is just that, the result (i.e. some damage), like e.g. a result of a strike isn't the strike itself.

In taijiquan breaking of, say, an elbow joint, would be considered an application of "lie" ("split"). It's an "energy" that simply went past the breaking point.

Qinna is what may have happened before the actual break/how things got to that point -- but things could have gotten to that same break in other ways. You can break a knee joint with a low kick -- that's not a qinna, is it?

That's how I'm seeing it anyway... May very well be wrong, but makes sense to me, FWIW...

[willie]

The "explosive" part, again as I mentioned, is no longer a qinna, by definition; it's one of the attacks that can come after a successful qunna (i.e. "seize and control").

why is that? I can apply locks that break something in the joint by the end of its execution. how is it no longer qin na? Yes - the 'translation' of it is simply 'seize' partnered with the word 'control' but we don't have to take it so literal when translated into English - essentially it is the ability to lock a joint. what you do with it from there is still considered an aspect of qin na if you tear their tendons or break a bone/dislocate the joint completely.

There is different ways for different styles.
His statement is correct. There is a complete system of training explosive fajin, Which is a separate thing.
While technically the person may still be in a effective 100 percent locked position, It's that added fajin that breaks the joint.
A different way is just to apply a mechanical advantage which breaks the joint. They are different systems.

[dspyrido]

You can break a knee joint with a low kick -- that's not a qinna, is it?

It is qinna move if there is a lever point. E.g. grasp the opponemts arm, place the foot on the knee, pull the arm forward, straighten knee ... slowly to get control/fast to hear a snap. Different effects dont come from changing the move but are based on the power, speed and timing.

Qinna is all about leverage which relies on more than one contact point which must be used in unison as a complex lever and fulcrum. Two fists on someones chest is not qinna. One palm on the lower back and one on the head moving in the opposite directions is qinna (& is a setup move).

There are great moves in cma forms that are hidden in plain sight.

But why even make a distinction. Qinna is richer when it combines strikes and throws.

[willie]

My master has often said that 80% of Taijiquan is Qinna and Shuaijiao and how to counter them. I'm surprised that there's not much interest in this..

for some teachers Tai Chi is 80% form practice
for some teachers Tai Chi is 80% wrestling
for some teachers Tai Chi is 80% anti-wrestling
for some teachers Tai Chi is 80% qinna
for some teachers Tai Chi is 80% striking
for some teachers Tai Chi is 80% no touch pushing

IMHO, tai chi is not this or that, but about personal exploration and personal interpretation.
And IME, people who states that tai chi should be 80% about this or 80% about that haven't yet understood what tai chi truly means or they haven't yet made the art their own property.

... This was a polite way to say your teacher suck ...
Just kidding. I am just jellous as heck that you are practicing full time in China and I am sitting here with piles of paper work in my lap.

Interesting.
A good teacher will recognize the difference between what you already have and don't have.
So if you already have what is beneath, why not train 80 percent of what you need?
Seems to make sense to me.

Edit because, yes your right, This self limiting thought of it's this or that is wrong.
For me, The highest attainment is to be able to use the application from the forms. They may be modified to fit the situation,
but the understanding is the same.

[Activeghost]

I gradually gave up jujitsu locks (qin na) over time although that is where I do have some background. Once I started playing with resistant opponents I immediately gave up chasing techniques. After a while of using those forms to grab the opponents mind for an advantage I also gave up that usage as it grabs mine as well. Now I use it if something like that appears during movement but otherwise don't worry about it. I have an engineers love for the mechanical aspect of jujitsu, but find strikes and positioning that flow into opportunity (due to the opponents reaction) to be more useful at the stage I'm currently at.

[BruceP]

I gradually gave up jujitsu locks (qin na) over time although that is where I do have some background. Once I started playing with resistant opponents I immediately gave up chasing techniques. After a while of using those forms to grab the opponents mind for an advantage I also gave up that usage as it grabs mine as well. Now I use it if something like that appears during movement but otherwise don't worry about it. I have an engineers love for the mechanical aspect of jujitsu, but find strikes and positioning that flow into opportunity (due to the opponents reaction) to be more useful at the stage I'm currently at.

That's a good place to be. Nice post.

[meeks]

While technically the person may still be in a effective 100 percent locked position, It's that added fajin that breaks the joint.

not at all. simply exceeding the maximum load capacity of a joint while having it held at its maximum range of motion (where it cannot move any further) will break the joint. I don't need speed, I need understanding. Once the joint is 'maxed out' I can simply lean on it slowly (or continue the motion) and it's going to pop. Even a bone can break when its max load is exceeded. Most people achieve that with velocity to add impact, but even taking a body in a direction that the supporting leg cannot adjust for can snap the fibula or tibia.

Even plucking the tendons (part of qin na) while they are at their max range of motion can tear them away from the bones they are attached to. 'fa jin' (which translates as 'emit force' but most people think it means to move with 'explosive power') is not needed for this result unless you are using 'brute force' to achieve the result.