My experience with Chen Ziqiang

[MaartenSFS]

It's not that hard not to be taken down with a little bit of training. Striking at close range, not just with elbows and knees, is a priority in most CMA, unlike today's boxing.

[cloudz]

One thing I have observed in regards Chin-na is that as others have noted it is often difficult to apply standing. Much more so when people have free space behind and around them. This is one of the reasons (principles) sub grappling/ bjj works on the ground the way it does, and how it opens up a bigger world of positional variation with lack of 'freedom of movement', so to speak. Lot's of techniques are much more workable in 'fixed' positions where movements/ escapes are restricted - maybe I am stating the obvious. So in relation to stand up chin-na, the lesson I take from that is that it's much more likely to be workable against bariers; like walls. perhaps either way really - if you're the one pressured against the wall, or you are the one pressuring against a barrier.

Just something I've been thinking about lately.

Striking at close range, not just with elbows and knees, is a priority in most CMA, unlike today's boxing.

yes. just the other day I was drilling Close quarter striking on my hanging heavy bag. knees, elbows, forearms, shoulders, head-butts. I throw in hip (bump) sometimes too. I use a floor bag for low kicking, trips and sweeps.

Tui shou is a great platform for training all 3 main areas of techniques at close quarters, whether technique practice within it, various drills and patterns for all sorts of "learning modules" (sheesh!).. And finally free practice/sparring/various rule-sets. Of course at some point you 'separate' and you have the distancing to figure out and what your strategy and tactics will be to negotiate that and work your style..

[MaartenSFS]

I think that if you take Qinna for what it really is, distractions, set-ups or a break if they are caught unawares, it becomes highly useable, even... deadly effective (TM).

[Orpheus]

Do you guys compete with all these moves? In no jacket as well?

Aside from striking or clawing sweet spots are any moves prohibited in competition? Eg can you throw with an opponents arm locked around the back? Locking wrists while combining with other moves are out?

The formal SC tournament is jacket only. All the large joint manipulation are allowed. Only the small joint manipulation such as finger bending, finger splitting are not allowed.

For example, you can use elbow lock with leg "cut" to take your opponent down. But in tournament, besides the elbow "cracking", the joint locking skill are low successful rate skill.

In one Taiwan tournament, my opponent used his right hand to grab on my front belt. I use my left arm to hit on his right elbow joint as hard as I could to force him to release that grip. In SC, if your opponent refused to let go a grip and got joint injury, that would be his fault and not yours.

In the following clip, one can see more "leg skill" are used in SC than in western wrestling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OyTiyjKdHI

I can't speak for Taiwan, but on the Mainland, throws that use a joint as a lever are not allowed in competition settings. Risk of injury to the joint is too high. Still practiced, just can't bust it out. See example below.

[Orpheus]

The point... different rule sets really impact what is being tested.

I like the idea of sj like rules without a jacket to test locks and take down capability. Also as both opponents dont want to go to the ground then an additional rule can be to lock someone for a standing count to represent a pin.

I think its an alternative/augmentation to submission/no gi rules.

I would recommend looking into beach wrestling. The rules are very similar to SJ, just without the jacket and fewer throws to win victory (best two out of three). If you're looking for a place to test. No standing pin though.

[johnwang]

I would recommend looking into beach wrestling. The rules are very similar to SJ, just without the jacket and fewer throws to win victory (best two out of three). If you're looking for a place to test. No standing pin though.

I actually prefer non-jacket wrestling than jacket wrestling for the following reasons:

- It's much easier to enter. Without jacket, your opponent can't hold on your jacket, use stiff arms to hold you away.
- It forces you to train new contact points that you may not train in jacket wrestling.
- It forces you to develop strong grips that work on the skin and muscle.
- It forces you to move in from wrist gate to elbow gate, and then to shoulder gate.
- Both parry-wrap and comb hair work well in non-jacket environment.
- ...

[dspyrido]

I would recommend looking into beach wrestling. The rules are very similar to SJ, just without the jacket and fewer throws to win victory (best two out of three). If you're looking for a place to test. No standing pin though.

I actually prefer non-jacket wrestling than jacket wrestling for the following reasons:

- It's much easier to enter. Without jacket, your opponent can't hold on your jacket, use stiff arms to hold you away.
- It forces you to train new contact points that you may not train in jacket wrestling.
- It forces you to develop strong grips that work on the skin and muscle.
- It forces you to move in from wrist gate to elbow gate, and then to shoulder gate.
- Both parry-wrap and comb hair work well in non-jacket environment.
- ...

Great points. I also prefer no-jacket/no-gi. I dont avoid jackets/gis but prefer to make it supplementary than the main focus when practising grappling.

It seems:
- all things learnt without a jacket can work with a jacket - not the case for the reverse
- no jacket fits better for flowing into shorts strikes which is more rounded for fighting
- there is no need to worry about striping grips using force and its far more better to work with leverage & sensitivity
- some throws like lapel or belt grabs are very difficult to apply
- specialising in using a gi or belt in submission is an art but there are many other areas of time better spent such as mixing striking in

[dspyrido]

I would recommend looking into beach wrestling. The rules are very similar to SJ, just without the jacket and fewer throws to win victory (best two out of three). If you're looking for a place to test. No standing pin though.

Early testing of this seems to show the standing pin addition is important.

A lock with a 3 or maybe 5 count was enough to represent that the receiving end was in trouble. It was easy to see that levered force impact or a throw using a locked position would hurt. So it may sound contrary but it seems safer by introducing the standing pin.

Plus the standing pin can represent a free strike combination.

Time and testing will tell.

[cloudz]

If you don't have any beaches nearby you could always try Turkish oil wrestling - a few buckets of olive oil from the local deli and you're sorted..
I was thinking, for me; I will probably take a good look at catch wrestling next as I think there's some things in there that I haven't really cross trained and the style offers something a bit different strategy wise to BJJ. I love the BJJ mantra of position before submission it makes a lot of sense and works great. However I think there's room for learning about another approach - which I think all round is probably the closest fit to cross train with CMA anyway, ultimately.

[GrahamB]

George - one of the brown belts at my club came to us with a background in Catch wrestling - it's brutal! Not nice at all! Lots of unexpected arm locks from weird positions too.

The classic Catch documentary is now on Vimeo:

https://vimeo.com/31291221

What is "beach wrestling"? I'm imagining it has some involvement from a running David Hasslehoff at some point?

[Bodywork]

Beach wrestling was a tradition in early Bjj days.

Thanks for the video link. I think many people have forgotten wrestling, as they are on to newer things. It serves a reminder that Royce's perfect record was stopped by a corn fed Iowa wrestler.

I so much enjoyed all of the same references in that video, right from England, that were passed on to many of us as young men, here in America.
I also loved the idea of the oft mentioned and misunderstood "wrestler's confidence" you used to hear in TMA schools being mentioned in its own right in the film. Grappling was one of the only venues where you put yourself to the test. You won, you lost, you won again, many times with the same guys. We weren't fans of each other. We were fans of wrestling. I spent my life calling it a physical chess game. I'm sure it was someone else's saying and not mine, but here it was from the lips of these old guys! Sweet!
After, that the TMA were easy, and most of the time the men in them, were easy pickin's.
I loved the guy saying that missing occasionally.. "Kept me straight."
Also enjoyed them saying the WWE are great athletes, but they don't know how to wrestle.

[cloudz]

Thanks Graham, I'll have to check that out.

[johnwang]

- all things learnt without a jacket can work with a jacket - not the case for the reverse.

In the following 2015 Long Beach SC workshop clip, you can see that even when people had jackets on, the techniques that they were working on did not have to depend on jacket.

https://www.facebook.com/CombatShuaiChi ... 678160424/

[dspyrido]

- all things learnt without a jacket can work with a jacket - not the case for the reverse.

In the following 2015 Long Beach SC workshop clip, you can see that even when people had jackets on, the techniques that they were working on did not have to depend on jacket.

https://www.facebook.com/CombatShuaiChi ... 678160424/

Thanks for that. Does combat grappling sj spar/compete under different rules to normal shuai jiow?

[johnwang]

Does combat grappling sj spar/compete under different rules to normal shuai jiow?

The combat SC (CSC) competition rules is the Sanda/Sahshou rules without the 3 seconds holding limitation.