Wudang Origin of Taijiquan

[MaartenSFS]

Last week my master told me that he had been doing some research and talking to people and that he believes that Taijiquan doesn't come from Chenjiagou. He has studied most styles of Taijiquan, so he has no bias towards one or another.

He told me that the Chen clan was known for their Paoquan and that the names (and movements) in the form obviously show a Buddhist, Shaolin influence, whereas Yang and the other styles from out of Chenjiagou are more Daoist in nature. He believes that a Taijiquan master came to Chenjiagou and taught Chen Wangting the original (TM) Taijiquan.

It was evnetually passed down to Chen Changxing, who wasn't able to teach it, as it was frowned upon by the others in Chenjiagou (being an art from the OUTSIDE), so he taught Yang Luchan, as no one was allowed to teach him Paoquan anyways, as he was an outsider. Over time some Taijiquan rubbed off on others in the village and the Paoquan gradually became Chen Taijiquan. It wasn't until Yang Taijiquan became popular that they changed the name. So, even then, they were already savvy marketers. Yang's style, Shifu says, bears an uncanny resemblance so Wudang style and he doesn't believe that it was his style that influenced Wudang.

Still, my master studied Chen Taijiquan and highly respects it as a form of Taijiquan (and the others as well), just not the original. Yang Luchan, he says, learned many other arts before and after he studied in Chenjiagou three times. After he left the last time he systemised his own art, which was a mixture of a lot of things as well.

In the end, one can rest assured that we can never know the exact foundations of all of these arts and should instead focus on learning and being able to use them as best we can and not blindly follow a village's PR. Similarly, that Zhang Sanfeng created the art is also likely a crock of shite. Anyways, happy training!

[yeniseri]

The ubiqitious can of worms but it is all good!

This is known about taijiquan regardless of those who refuse to accept it. It can be verified at least 95% with excellent accuracy
1. All of what is called taijiquan, per the naming conventions, is of recent vintage, The naming convention applying to all is at best from the 1940 One can look at this in 2 stages but it can be considered just 1 stage. When Yang went to Beijing to teach (we can use that year when people first saw "taijiquan") people imagined that he was the originator of the art because there was no other exponent who identified himself as such! Stage 2 was when the first Chen left the village and he began to spread the art, he was considered a usurper because Yang got there first. It is only after more word got out that it was realized Chen family were the true owners!
2. Yang, Wu2, Wu3, Sun, etc all learned form a single source and that is Chen village origin
3. Despite Chen family origin (over 500 years) there is paoquan influence along with Tai Zhu and Shaolin influences per their naming convention of the era as Chenjaogou absorbed the various folk systems and added various Buddhist hagiographical affiliation and stuff.
4. Yang had no "taijiquan' influence before his Chen association so he absorbed Chen, added his own cosmological and ontological meaning assisted by Wu stye but the true origin is still there regarding Chen association and affiliation

Wudang on the other hand does not show this linkage. When Wudang and its modern stuff started to come out, one has to be suspicious when Wudang Zhaobao shows its head. That is not real. I am just Waiting for Wudang Sun style to hit the shelves, as it were, and that is the nail on the coffin. Just saying

[onebir]

I am just Waiting for Wudang Sun style to hit the shelves, as it were

LOL!

Better make that Wudang Taiyang style

[Bao]

Yang Luchan, he says, learned many other arts before and after he studied in Chenjiagou three times. After he left the last time he systemised his own art, which was a mixture of a lot of things as well.

He knew some shaolin/changquan arts alright. Probably that was the reason why he could be taught Chan style so well, he already had a strong foundation. Also, don't forget that some shaolin practice is very soft, just as soft as yang tai chi.

. I am just Waiting for Wudang Sun style to hit the shelves, as it were, and that is the nail on the coffin.

Don't understand where you're heading at. It's already out there. Sun Lutang and his IMA friends called IMA the wudang arts. So you could call his own tai chi book Wudang Sun style, don't think he would have mind that.

[willie]

.

[cloudz]

I like the idea of 2 styles in Chen village or roundabouts, broadly speaking.. Zhao-bao taiji and small frame Chen I find quite similar and it's line to Wu Yuxiang style has much more familiarity to Yang/ Wu than it does to the lines tracing back to the village, other than small frame Chen.

It could be the tell tale signs of this split, and as things evolved the Chen clan gradually merged their art.

[MaartenSFS]

Also, Shifu says that Wu, Wu and Sun did not necessarily only come from Yang. Mixing was the name of the game back in the day and any man worth his salt would have absorbed as much as he could.

Note; I said that Taijiquan was taught to Yang Luchan, but not directly to most of the Chen clan, nor was Paoquan directly taught to Yang, as that was forbidden. The Taijiquan slowly began influencing the Paoquan over time, as it spread to other, more open, members of the clan and Yang probably learned a bit of Paoquan when he was there.

It's all just educated conjecture, though, but I wouldn't go around claiming that it originated here or there when there is so much doubt and so much time has passed. In conclusion, all interpretations of Taijiquan are effective if taught properly by someone that knows how to use it. Unlike most martial arts, though, the danger of it turning into LARPing is more real than ever. The sheeple will feel the need to be herded - preferably comfortably..

There also wasn't just one split, just many personal interpretations of the same thing, based on body type, demeanor etc. In Chinese culture there are rarely concrete systems to learn. Masters teach their students whatever they feel like on that day, and each student different things. It's very easy for each master to have a completely different skillset and approach, depending on their own training and experience. There is no mould, so to speak.

[GrahamB]

Wow - this thread is like taking a time machine back to 1995 - bravo!

[cloudz]

Also, Shifu says that Wu, Wu and Sun did not necessarily only come from Yang. Mixing was the name of the game back in the day and any man worth his salt would have absorbed as much as he could.

Note; I said that Taijiquan was taught to Yang Luchan, but not directly to most of the Chen clan, nor was Paoquan directly taught to Yang, as that was forbidden. The Taijiquan slowly began influencing the Paoquan over time, as it spread to other, more open, members of the clan and Yang probably learned a bit of Paoquan when he was there.

It's all just educated conjecture, though, but I wouldn't go around claiming that it originated here or there when there is so much doubt and so much time has passed. In conclusion, all interpretations of Taijiquan are effective if taught properly by someone that knows how to use it. Unlike most martial arts, though, the danger of it turning into LARPing is more real than ever. The sheeple will feel the need to be herded - preferably comfortably..

There also wasn't just one split, just many personal interpretations of the same thing, based on body type, demeanor etc. In Chinese culture there are rarely concrete systems to learn. Masters teach their students whatever they feel like on that day, and each student different things. It's very easy for each master to have a completely different skillset and approach, depending on their own training and experience. There is no mould, so to speak.

Yea, I think this is a sound way to think about it.

One of the reasons I said what I did was based on some research done by Dan Docherty that I recall. Dan has always been a proponent of a non Chen origin in the past. It is of course speculative, but as you say if you do that you have to try to do it in an educated way.. Anyway one thing that can be sais is that from study of Chen village itself and some of it's history he concluded that 2 martial arts must have been practiced to some degree. One is the "village style" that anyone could take up as was common in similar Chines villages. Now what are the odds YLC was there for that or was taught this style.. Not likely. Dan's conjecture was that at that time it's likely there was an 'inside the door' style or system and the Clans/ family "village" style.

On that basis, it doesn't sound hugely far fetched. There's other history that the martial artists of the era tended to believe. The mythical Taoist creator is in some circles considered to only have contributed one style of what later became taiji - the 13 postures version. Again it's really impossible to know. But I guess that will never stop interested parties making their speculations.

But I think just the kind of knowledge about 'how things work' (culture), that your master is talking about makes a lot of sense here. Your treacher mentions one character of interest, there is also Jiang Fa who was said to be first generation to Wang Zongyue and passed it on. This personage is also recognised in Chen history to some degree. Though It might be possible they like to keep him in the background and his role is deemed 'uncertain'..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhaobao_t ... i_ch%27uan

[MaartenSFS]

I think that the biggest problem is that people are biased and easily blinded by the cult and their marketeers.

[taiwandeutscher]

Yeah, sure, but one thing is clear: Wudang is not the origin of TJQ!

[cloudz]

Yep, it was some other distant mountain in the clouds. Lao Tzu danced in the background whilst it all went down.

[Silverone]

Have been following sporadically the webpage of Kung Fu Tea, which takes an academic look at Chinese Martial Arts including Taijiquan https://chinesemartialstudies.com/ If you want to, search "Taijiquan" for some views on its history.

This led me to Stanley Henning's 2012 paper on "Thoughts on the Origins and Development of Taijiquan" http://www.seinenkai.com/articles/henni ... 0paper.pdf

Other views on its history include those of Paul Bowman, Adam Frank's book on "Taijiquan and the Search for the Little Old Chinese Man" and Meir Shahar's book on the Shaolin Monastery" which refers to Shaolin and Taijiquan creation myths.

From my naive understanding, it seems that the history of Taijiquan/cotton boxing (or whatever it was called before that) is very complex and bound to the social and cultural aspects of the times (centuries) in which it was practised and the oral traditions of history of those times. It seems also that the notion of vested interests developing propaganda and "myths of creation" is not a new phenomenon and that stories of internal/external, snakes and cranes, Daoist beliefs and practises, and who got what style first, are devices that reoccur in history to peddle one predominating view over others. I think that the history of Taijiquan is important but IMO let's acknowledge that the historical cultural and social contexts that have led to what we know as Taijiquan today, will likely cloud the "true" history that we seek.

Just my 2 bobs worth. BTW my master identifies himself as the 38th generational teacher of a Taijiquan style that is virtually unknown (even in China) and to me most resembles Wudang style. Who knows?

[GrahamB]

There's also the idea that there is "Tai Chi Chuan" and also "neijin" - the body skills that Tai Chi Chuan uses, which seem to be linked to much older ideas (muslce tendon channels, for instance).

I think it's very likely that the internal body method of Tai Chi Chuan is much, much older than the martial art called Tai Chi Chuan, and didn't start with it, so I think you could argue that it's one of the latest incarnations of older body wisdom.

[cloudz]

I always found the whole 32 posture / 37 posture templates an interesting conversion.

Song Shuming brought that style (37 posture) to Beijing after Yang made his conversion. So that oral history seems like it was known to Yang, otherwise why that number. It's hard to imagine it's pure coincidence. And that would stand whether Song was what he claimed or putting the story together to further his martial career and or standing in the Beijing martial community.

I think it becomes harder and harder to write off the oral histories these guys themselves held to, if not being academically accurate pointing at origin stories whilst some are mythical, they could still be communicating elements of truth nonetheless like a metaphor or analogy might.

No doubt there may have been many styles or variations that resemble TCC over the centuries whether in outward appearance and or body wisdom - nice term btw!

For those not seen this before:

Quote:
Below is a brief introduction to the account of Taiji Quan history popular in the early part of the 20th Century. We have included this to give the reader some background information and context to Song Shuming’s claims.

According to traditional beliefs, there were originally five styles of Taiji Quan. Although the movements are different, they were all based on the same Daoist philosophy. Most Taiji Quan practitioners of Song Shuming’s time believed in this. The five original styles are:

(1) Xiao Jiu Tian (Small Nine Layer Heaven):
The oldest of the five styles, it came from Han Gongyue of Liang Dynasty roughly 1,600 years ago. No one knows if he learned it from someone else or he created it himself. Of his students, Cheng Lingxi was famous. Cheng lived in Xiouning County of Hui Zhou. For meritorious service in battle, he was reward the governorship of a Jun (consists of five counties). After Cheng Lingxi, there were no famous people in this style until Cheng Bi. Cheng Bi was a high-level official during the Song Dynasty, around 1140 AD. It was he who gave it the new name of Xiao Jiu Tian, instead of just Taiji Quan, and wrote some articles about its principles.

(2) San Shi Qi (Thirty-Seven Postures):
Xu Xuanping was a hermit who lived in Chengyang Mountain during Tang Dynisty around 1,400 years ago. He was described as tall, with long flowing beard and hair. He was said to be able to run as fast as a horse. Everyday he came down from the mountains with firewood to exchange for alcohol in the town below. Li Bai, one of the most famous poets in Chinese history, wanted to meet Xu, but was never able to find him.
Xu’s Taiji Quan had another name, San Shi Qi, or Thirty Seven Postures, since it consisted of thirty seven postures. Movements in today’s Taiji Quan bear striking resemblance to this style. When people studied this style, they would practice each posture individually, and then they would combine the movements together into forms freely; it may be long, short, or never-ending. For this reason people called it Chang Quan - long fist. Xu wrote several famous poems on Taiji Quan principle.

It is said that after another nine hundred years, Song Yuanqiao became famous for this form. And that his distant descendent Song Shuming brought this style to Beijing in the 1910’s. There is an article titled “Description of Song Style Taiji Quan Lineage and Branch” by Song Yuanxiao and brought to us by Song Shuming, that listed the names of all postures within Song Style Taiji Quan as well as some lineage information.

(3) Xian Tian Quan (Pre-Birth Fist):
Li Daozhi was a Taoist priest in Nanyan Temple of Wudang Mountain during the Tang Dynisty. His style was known as Xian Tian Quan, Xian Tian meaning back to nature. Later on it was passed onto the Yu family, who lived in the Jing County of Ningguo Fu. Several of the Yu family members, such as Yu Qinghui, Yu Yicheng, and Yu Lianzhou, became famous for this style. Li wrote a poem about its high-level principles called Shou Mi Ge, or Song of Secrete Transmission. In it he described the relationship between Dao, qigong, and martial arts.

(4) Hou Tian Fa (Post-Birth Method):
Hu Jingzhi lived in Yangzhou during Tang Dynasty. His style was known as Hou Tian Fa, which means the training methodology for going back to nature. Within this style, there are sixteen elbow striking techniques. All of them are very useful for real fighting. Of his students Song Zhongshu was famous. In later generations, Yin Liheng was very famous.

(5) Shi San Shi (Thirteen Postures):
Zhang Sanfeng’s Taiji Quan is known as Shi San Shi, or Thirteen Postures. It is said that this style was separate to two main branches, one is called northern style and the other is called southern style. In the southern style, during several hundred years in different generations, Zhang Songxi, Wang Zhengnan, Huang Baijia, and Gan Fengchi etc, were very famous. But today this style is lost4. In the northern style, Chen Zhoutong, Wang Zongyue, Jiang Fa, Chen Changxing, and Yang Luchan etc. were famous5. All Taiji Quan as practiced today come from this style. So today when people say Taiji Quan, most of the time they meant the northern style of Zhang Sanfeng’s Taiji Quan. The popular descendents of this style today are Chen style, Yang style, Wu (Quan Yu) style, Wu (Wu Yuxiang) style, and Sun style.
Except for the Zhang Sanfeng style, the other four original styles of Taiji Quan are almost extinct. Only a handful of old masters may know something about them.

Note:

1. According to legend, Song Yuanqiao was a famous Taiji Quan master who inherited Xu Xunping’s Thirty-seven Postures Taiji Quan about five hundred years ago.

2. Xu Yusheng was a famous martial art educator. He learned Taiji Quan from Yang Jianhou. In 1911, he set up a martial arts school, the first of which that adopted the modern approach to education, and invited famous masters to teach their respective styles. Yang Shouhou, Yang Chenfu, and Wu Jianquan taught Taiji Quan in his school. It was in his school that Taiji Quan was first taught to the public. **

3. Xiangcheng is a special name of Yuan Shikai, the president of China at the time. Xiancheng is the name of Yuan’s hometown, so people often referred to him as Yuan Xiangcheng or just Xiancheng. This is a popular traditional custom.

4. Today many people believe that actually the southern style of Taiji Quan is Nei Jia Quan – Internal Fist. It has no any relationship with Taiji Quan.

5. Some people doubt this traditional version of northern style Taiji Quan lineage. They believe Taiji Quan was invited by Chen family in Chenjia Gou Village of Wen County in Heinan province around middle of seventeenth centenary.
*Song Shuming left Beijing with the fall of Yuan Shikai and settled in Baoding where he passed away.
Wang Xinwu, disciple of Xu Yusheng at the Beijing Academy, explains this in his work in the early 40ies.

**Taijiquan was first taught to the public in Tianjin in 1910 at the 'Tianjin Zhonghua Wushi Hui".
Xu Yusheng's school came second and was partially modelled on the Tianjin school