Rollback - the unfinished technique

[GrahamB]

George - as far as I can see, that first technique only works because he's grabbing your wrist - can't see how you can follow rollback with that...?

[willie]

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[willie]

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[cloudz]

George - as far as I can see, that first technique only works because he's grabbing your wrist - can't see how you can follow rollback with that...?

I can see that "rollback" is already in that 'zhou' technique, so why follow rollback with another rollback essentially...?
The gates combine in various ways to produce different techniques. The 'proto typical' rollback that's named in the form is a basic example of Lu energy that carries a bit of lie (split) within it.

The technique Paulson shows; to the approach I like to use contains rollback, split and elbow "gates".

Maybe conceptually this ("the gates") is a slightly different approach than other approaches to exploring and manifesting technique. It works 'outward' from body use. Using and combining body forces and body movement skills as a base. The more typical or normal approach starts at the technique and works inward - in my opinion of course.. YMMV

[GrahamB]

George,

You've lost me.

Can you address the fact the Pailson technique works against a wrist grab only?

[cloudz]

about the wrist grab, well ok.

It doesn't have to be "a grab" per se. though it can be. The positional part is the part that I find relevant.
That it's same side and your hand starts at the bottom palm down. This is where the idea of 'seizing' (in taiji terms) comes into play - where there may be no grabs as such to work with.

Of course I am not saying don't explore the 'upper hand' position rather than 'lower hand' position, but as noted your hand that does the grabbing takes the top position.
that changes things abit, that's all. As long as you can explore the similarities and differences, that's the main thing I guess here.

These are really just variations of the same theme aren't they.

[cloudz]

ahh,

I didn't watch John's second clip.
in that one he does it same side (like Paulson) but with him doing the wrist grab. From cross side situation - his opposite side hand would be on the bottom, so he grabs / traps/ seizes from the top with his same side arm/hand.
Due to the top position of that side arm/hand I think more turning into it is needed.
From the bottom the more 'passive' way you maintain better position and the technique is 'tighter' - imo.

[cloudz]

Here's something (another chin-na) I like against the body placement of the hands. So it could be a lapel grab just a hand placed on you doesn't matter.
You don't have to grab it really, and not for this.

The taiji form is 'cross hands' done in the up to down variation. So your arms are circling up and closing and crossing down in front of you.
You can combine this with an off step to the side and some rotation. So you cross your hands over the offending hand and go against the wrist joint(s).
It could be against one wrist or double if they put two hands on you. At the least it will get rid of their hand(s) and as they retract you can maybe use that to follow up with something else of your own.

Cross hands combines "ji" and "an" and you can add some Lu to the application I describe above: a part that rotates towards your rear.
Another interesting aspect of Lu is that you can do it whilst you advance forward in space, so it doesn't have to be all passive necessarily - in so much as you can enter with it also.

[cloudz]

for some wider perspective for rollback.. see how he's using it here from neck and arm positioning at the start. This is more like the "raise hands" posture that can be more of a vertical 2 on 1 position on the arm or as it is shown here using the neck and other side arm position. There's also a more horizontal type position that can be against an arm or against the two sides of the torso - usually around the shoulders.

Anyway in this he's using his position - doesn't really matter what it might be and he's doing some Lu.. rotating to his rear. If you think about it rotational force and shearing force both use similar 2 way/ directional powers. So they mix together very nicely, lu/rollback and lie/split that is.

[windwalker]

A comparison was made of the clip I posted of Peter Ralston vs some other clip
suggesting that the YILi was the same making I would assume a comparison of what was shown "the tech" to be the same.

In this case I would say they are quite different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA

Peter does not engage the others body as shown in the clip, and most of the other clips
a different method in use. A good commentary explaining his reasoning.

[D_Glenn]

A comparison was made of the clip I posted of Peter Ralston vs some other clip
suggesting that the YILi was the same making I would assume a comparison of what was shown "the tech" to be the same.

In this case I would say they are quite different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA

Peter does not engage the others body as shown in the clip, and most of the other clips
a different method in use. A good commentary explaining his reasoning.

"Yong Yi, Bu Yong Li."

Your problem is that you can't see someone who is using Yi, but hidden within Li, so you jump to the assumption that it's only Li.

You're such a hypocrite it's laughable.

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[windwalker]

A comparison was made of the clip I posted of Peter Ralston vs some other clip
suggesting that the YILi was the same making I would assume a comparison of what was shown "the tech" to be the same.

In this case I would say they are quite different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA

Peter does not engage the others body as shown in the clip, and most of the other clips
a different method in use. A good commentary explaining his reasoning.

"Yong Yi, Bu Yong Li."

Your problem is that you can't see someone who is using Yi, but hidden within Li, so you jump to the assumption that it's only Li.

You're such a hypocrite it's laughable. .

My problem wow
ok lets play.

Your problem , if you could do what was shown either one, then you would know the diffreance.

[D_Glenn]

You say "You have to feel it."

All I'm saying is that you should probably feel Alex Kozma before you pass judgement on what he's doing.

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[windwalker]

I didnt pass any judgement

the 2 clips shown are different
they use different methods

In Peters clip, he even says that what he is doing is not the same and contrast his method with other methods showing and explaining
the differences. .





If you feel what is shown, and what Peter said is the same thing.
For you it may be the same, for me its clearly not...

One acts on the body directly, the other is acting on the intent directly.
Both have to have and use intention.

[D_Glenn]

I'm not talking about the video clips, per se, but, that Alex does have control at first touch, then does/ follows through with the rest of the application.

Ralston, since he's teaching the skills, typically only gets control at first touch then lets the guy go and starts over. (Not referring to the video of Ralston that you posted but other videos.)

You would probably have to have previously seen other videos of Alex Kozma in order to have a better sense of him, but that's why I didn't want to make a big deal of it.

You should just try to meet both of them some time. That's all I'm saying.

Peace out.

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