Rollback - the unfinished technique

[GrahamB]

From my latest blog, I discuss how I like to finish rollback from the grasp bird's tail sequence of Tai Chi as a martial technique using the standing jiujitsu arm bar.

What's your favourite finish after Rollback? Here's mine:

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... technique/

[charles]

I just LOVE Yang style "rollback". As most people perform it, it is the perfect example of what not to do. (Put another way, of people not knowing how to practically implement the principles.) As most people perform it, it is a classic example of "double-heavy" or "double-weighted". It's the perfect example of how to pull your opponent into you and get clobbered by him, with a kao to the chest or upper arm. And, to be defenceless as your opponent does it - or you did it to yourself.

I like to use this very move as an example of how, in your particular practice/style, you differentiate - or not - ying from yang, one of the defining principles of Taijiquan.

Your solution? To use jiujitsu. That's one way to solve the problem.

[GrahamB]

Hi Charles,

Seems to have hit a nerve. I don't really understand what you mean, with 'pull the opponent into you' - the way I understand rollback you pull them past you - into you would make no sense, unless you were doing it in a more High Pat on Horse/Repulse Monkey sort of way, where the other hand is striking them.

[charles]

Seems to have hit a nerve.

Indeed you did.

I don't really understand what you mean, with 'pull the opponent into you' - the way I understand rollback you pull them past you

Sounds nice, but try that on a skilled opponent.

[willie]

I like to use lu as dantian powered shocking force, Then transition right into a S-line and break, It is nearly undetectable and almost un-stoppable.
That ones for D_glen as I'm sure he knows.

[charles]

I like to use lu as dantian powered shocking force...

How is that different from Tsai (Cai), "plucking"?

[willie]

I like to use lu as dantian powered shocking force...

How is that different from Tsai (Cai), "plucking"?

Short power Fajin Lu Into S-line.

In the example of the jiu-jitsu stand up arm bar, which you and I both know wont work on a good taiji guy.
The forces are easily detectable and therefor effortlessly controlled. A S-Line is a snake. It has force, but the forces
can not be detected because the forces are dispersed and never in any one place until the break.

[Bodywork]

I like to use lu as dantian powered shocking force...

How is that different from Tsai (Cai), "plucking"?

In the example of the jiu-jitsu stand up arm bar, which you and I both know wont work on a good taiji guy.
The forces are easily detectable and therefor effortlessly controlled. A S-Line is a snake. It has force, but the forces
can not be detected because the forces are dispersed and never in any one place until the break.

I agree, but in reality, they really are not going to be reliable on most any sober person. Standing joint locks are a low percentage technique. They have a place for learning certain things, past that it should be openly taught.....to avoid using them.
IMO, discussing them without that qualifier or a flat out denial of their efficacy (to a student or worse, on a video) is a bit of warning bell to me of a guy's lack of practical skills and knowledge. Or if he does know, then it shows a lack of ability to teach well what to avoid. It's one or the other, or both. Most competent Aiki shihan (the kings of standing joint locks) tell people they don't really work in a high stress situation.

[Bodywork]

Charles
I'm sure you are correct that many guys in fact DON"T know what they are doing, so they set themselves up for a fall. But, pulling someone toward you isn't always bad.
It can be a set up for many things-fists, elbows, knees and feet, to throw set-ups...wanting him to follow you in. It would depend on the players experience in knowing what they are after and how to get there.

[yeniseri]

One of the main reasons my Yang style has evolved was the incompatibility of many of its postures in usage. As a result Grasp Birds Tail has been changed to match actual utility (still ongoing) as opposed to the apparent present rollback, which just appears to be useless waster of time and space. The final frontier

I do acknowledge my own level of ignorance in rollback usage! It application has never been acceptable as function and rationality.

[GrahamB]

I agree - standing joint locks rarely work as a 'finish', but they can - even on highly skilled people - but they also can be used to transition into something else that does work.

[willie]

I agree - standing joint locks rarely work as a 'finish', but they can - even on highly skilled people - but they also can be used to transition into something else that does work.

the standing jiu-jitsu lock will work on normal people. it's a good move if you want to stay off the ground, say at a bar when there's more
things happening. good move, should be taught.

[charles]

...pulling someone toward you isn't always bad.

Agreed. However, my comment was specifically related to Yang style's "roll back", as most seem to practice it.

One of the variations of the opening move, "raise hands", begins with pulling your opponent down and towards you. Essential for the application to work. Countless applications of cai, involving pulling an opponent towards you.

[D_Glenn]

Most of the Chinese martial arts assume a background or knowledge of Shuai Jiao and that 'Roll-back" movement falls under the category of a Leg-Hooking throw (gou jiao shuai), and in SJ the legs are 70%, hands are 30%.

So without the leg hooking the opponent's leg or ankle then the movement only has a 30% chance of working. And the leg hook and elbow lock have to happen at the same time for maximum effectiveness.

.

[Bodywork]

I agree - standing joint locks rarely work as a 'finish', but they can - even on highly skilled people - but they also can be used to transition into something else that does work.

the standing jiu-jitsu lock will work on normal people. it's a good move if you want to stay off the ground, say at a bar when there's more
things happening. good move, should be taught.

I'm not going to bother with qualifiers as they are argumentative and unreliable. But...No, it really isn't Willie. It is a low percentage technique. There are much better options to keep moving and down someone than to try these.