An Essay on External and Internal Martial Arts

[KEND]

AN ESSAY ON EXTERNAL AND INTERNAL MARTIAL ARTS
There has always been controversy over what constitutes an Internal or an External martial art. My early encounters with Tai Chi [1970], Hsing Yi [1974] and
Bagua [1976] which were deemed to be ‘Internal’ martial arts involved recognizing a new type of power which was then explained in terms of what I call the ‘Chi paradigm. This posited a mysterious force which permeates the natural world and which could be called on to perform supernatural feats. My research into this phenomenon was more science based and introduced concepts such a force vectors and energy exchange. This led to an article in Inside Kung Fu magazine [1982] and a book [2002 and 2012-2nd ed.]
I found that there are distinctive properties that distinguish Internal and External styles with a ‘grey area’ in between. Taking for example the range in which combat takes place. The range for External MA in general can be from over two arm’s lengths to one arm’s length [striking art, not grappling]. in Internal MA from 90% of an arm’s length to body contact. Strikes in Internal MA are based on shock waves rather than ‘wind up’. Additional principles such as ‘bridging’ and ‘centerline’ are also significant. There are other factors; posture, alignment, balance & etc but these apply to both internal and external styles. The main factor however distinguishing the arts is how power is produced.
Starting with ‘External’. Here the source of power is obvious; flexing of arm muscle to project fist, swinging arm to produce a centrifugal force, using shoulder muscles and waist movement to amplify the kinetic energy.
‘Grey area’; I put ‘whipping power’ into this category. A small movement of the body [large mass] creates kinetic energy that is transferred to a fist [small mass]. Since the kinetic energy is proportional to the mass and velocity squared the fist speed is increased considerably, as is the energy and damage to the target. This can be used with a large body movement [external] or a small, barely visible movement [internal]
Internal; Internal, as its name implies, produces power by the use of smaller muscle groups [intercostals for example] inside the body. These work synchronously to produce a shock wave [short power or fajing] or, by prolonging the duration of the wave, an uprooting push [long power].
The method of producing internal power varies, examples of this are as follows:
Hsing Yi: Five elements, by manipulation of the ribs and abdomen to produce five distinct vectors, up/down, open/close, expand/contract, rotating [drilling] and spiraling [crossing].
Bagua: Spiraling body using internal muscles and fascia, manipulation of spine [dragon body].
Tai Chi: Rotation and abrupt halting of abdomen, rotation of abdomen, use of reflected power using legs as ‘bows’, rapid expansion of abdomen etc.
Liu He Ba Fa: Sudden dropping of hips with abdomen expansion [reflected ].
Hsin I: [Dai family] Rotating and expanding abdomen.
I Chuan; Similar to Tai Chi, using reflected power.
Systema: This falls into ‘grey area’, using focused ‘whipping power.
Wing Chun: Manipulation of the clavicle, expansion of the upper body.
This list is far from complete and only includes systems that I am familiar with.
The above often involve the use of as many as a dozen muscles in a complex fashion and should be learned from someone thoroughly familiar with the process, internal muscles can take a long time to heal if overstressed.
I have found that many ‘external’ styles have traces of the above methods, where, after practicing for many years the body finds a more efficient method of producing power automatically using internal muscles.

[willie]

Kend, That was a pretty good overview.

People are easily offended by what's internal power and not.
So I like to look at things in a way that will not offend as much.

We will list (internal) "not internal power" as anything that is going on inside the body that you can not see.

This I believe would be Dun side. the doing nothing as people like to call it, would also be on this side.

Internal power "not just internal" is a powered art "Doing" Mao side.

Good post.

[yeniseri]

They are the same coin! No comment on your insight but just adding a different perspective
It is only level and stage of physical conditioning (jibengong through basic 'drilling' (over time i..e duration and frequency of 'gong') with {partner} practice that shows the better practitioner. One cannot do shuaijiao without partner practice or the lifting materials of one kind or another to develop that muscle {memory} with coordination.

If I am in contact with my adversary and he pushes me on the left shoulder and I respond with a punch or I throw him, he would think what I did was magic. What he did not see or was aware of was that I may have "emptied' the left side, used the right to catapult a punch then position to throw by getting under his body and throwing on ground. I may have stepped to the side, stepped on his toe then pushed over or pulled his body wher eI may have observed he was unbalanced, or I created that unbalance by 'pulling' then 'pushing".
Internal is not new. It is just that more people are aware of using other people force to their advantage and using ways to diffuse it with minimum effort.

Even wing chun is internal if you have the {proper] mindset with training and conditioning. If you attack, do it on the weak side, if he attacks above, I go below, etc

[windwalker]

Internal; Internal, as its name implies, produces power by the use of smaller muscle groups [intercostals for example] inside the body. These work synchronously to produce a shock wave [short power or fajing] or, by prolonging the duration of the wave, an uprooting push [long power].
The method of producing internal power varies, examples of this are as follows:
Hsing Yi: Five elements, by manipulation of the ribs and abdomen to produce five distinct vectors, up/down, open/close, expand/contract, rotating [drilling] and spiraling [crossing].
Bagua: Spiraling body using internal muscles and fascia, manipulation of spine [dragon body].
Tai Chi: Rotation and abrupt halting of abdomen, rotation of abdomen, use of reflected power using legs as ‘bows’, rapid expansion of abdomen etc.

Interesting article

All CMA use what is called internal power, the how, why and what is very different.
Indeed if one studies CMA I dont see how it would be possible to do so with out
references being made to internal and external types of power with all of CMA being classed
as using some form of inner power.

On this site there seems to be those suggesting there is no difference and others
some how suggesting that one is superior to the other.

I would suggest a 3rd way of looking at it, one that i use.
Its a matter of distinction, not that one is superior to the other.

External practices are those practices that seek to combine the internal work with the body directly using the body directly to effect another body. Iron shirt, Iron palm, Burning hand and many other such practices are good examples of this.

Internal practices are those practices that seek to use the body to reinforce internal alignments/processes to enhance the effects of the yi, qi ect...
that primarily interact with the others internal work...ie, qi to qi, yi to yi ect....The reactions of the others body to this, is a byproduct of this interaction.

The approaches used for both might start out the same, but are done for very different reasons.
The deeper the practices the more dramatic the differences become
the approaches used and the why.

As of yet there are no definitive definitions of what "qi" is.

There are people in the process of trying to measure it.

Can we measure Qi? Scientists have attempted to measure bioenergy or Qi, with varying success, using many different types of meters and instruments. Most promising have been the studies using voltmeters and magnetometers to measure the electrical and magnetic fields surrounding energy healers and Qigong practitioners.

In Japan, Seto and colleagues (1992; 1996) recorded extremely large magnetic fields adjacent to the heads, bodies and hands of Qigong practitioners during breathing meditations and during external Qi emission.

Elmer Green and colleagues (1991) recorded surges in the electrostatic potential (“body-potential”) of healers during distant healing sessions at the Menninger Clinic in Kansas. In my laboratory in Terre Haute, Indiana, we have observed a distinct magnetic field waveform – a symmetrical chirp wave (0 ̶ 40Hz) – which appears with high frequency during energy healing sessions.

In June, 2006, my student Danny LaPlante and I recorded magnetic field activity in several Tai Chi classrooms during Dr. Paul Lam’s 1-week workshop in West Terre Haute, Indiana. Most interestingly, we observed the ‘chirp wave’ (described above) in each of the classes we recorded, including the advanced Sun 73 form, the Sword form, and the Fan form (Figure 1).

http://www.indiana.edu/~brain/measuring ... n-tai-chi/


Some might also find this interesting

Qi in Taijiquan is an Intention Wave

A Study Based on Biomechanics By Jie Gu, Ph. D,
Abstract

An intention wave is the creation and propagation of Physiological wave under the guid-ance of the mind.

In this paper, using the concept of intention wave, we study the relationship and difference between the gas of breathing and the Qi in Taijiquan. We conclude that the gas of breathing is air; the Qi of Taijiquan ( tfRi.) is a wave; the air only gets into the lungs; Qi can travel to everywhere in a body. This paper study the functionalities for the force system and the Qi system in Taijiquan. We conclude that the force system is mainly for defense-offense.

The Qi system is mainly for self-cultivation.
Qi in classical Taijiquan Theories Qi is special in Taijiquan. Qi is quoted in many Taiji classical arti-cles. This article refer to it as the Qi of Taijiquan, or genuine Qi ( At-T,) .

In "Taijiquan Principles", Master Wang ZongYue said, "Qi sink in Dantian ) . " In "Thirteen
Posture Song " Master Wang ZongYue said, "Qi is all over the body with no delay. The stomach
is relaxed and tranquil with Qi boosting In "Thirteen posture performing method", Master Wang ZongYue said, "Mind Qi, tranquil, then it can set into bone. Mind guide Qi to body. Also, Mind Qi transfers swiftly. and Qi delivers through nine beads ( , reaching everywhere. Also Qi is the flag"

.

[johnwang]

If you hold a brick, smash it on your opponent's head, and knock him out, do you care if you are using "internal" power, or external power at that particular moment? To me, as long as my opponent is down below my knee, that's all I care about.

[willie]

If you hold a brick, smash it on your opponent's head, and knock him out, do you care if you are using "internal" power, or external power at that particular moment? To me, as long as my opponent is down below my knee, that's all I care about.

John, I respect you, your writing and your art.
it's not that external art's are not effective, they are extremely effective. it's what art's interest you and how far you can get in them.
hardly anyone even talks about Eagle Claw. I have a very high level friend, 4th black, whose master is a lineage holder.
The guy is very, very good. I have had at least 100 matches with that guy. external or not, it's pretty bad ass.
I even posted a match between me and him when I first joined this site.

If you want internal, it's out there, if you want external it's also out there.

[marvin8]

I found that there are distinctive properties that distinguish Internal and External styles with a ‘grey area’ in between. . . .

Tai Chi: Rotation and abrupt halting of abdomen, rotation of abdomen, use of reflected power using legs as ‘bows’, rapid expansion of abdomen etc. . . .

(I think this relates to the subject. ) Bruce Frantzis talks about four different stages of learning tai chi as a martial art. Excerpt from his book, "The Power of Internal Martial Arts and Chi: Combat Secrets of Tai Chi, Bagua and Hsing-i," http://www.energyarts.com/blog/bruce-frantzis/tai-chi-martial-arts:

Stage 4: Sparring and Actual Fighting

Sparring has a hundred times more variables to be handled than Push Hands. Yang Lu Chuan is said to have spend six years learning only the fighting and sparring strategies of tai chi. Free-style sparring is quite different from actual life-and-death combat. People respond very differently when they feel their survival is at stake as opposed to when only winning and losing is at risk.

From the traditional tai chi perspective, fighting called lan tsai hua is push hands with the following added:

1. Distance appreciation
2. Ability to flow between close, middle and long fighting distances
3. Fighting angles
4. Hitting, kicking, throwing, joint-locking, and the ability to absorb blows
5. The ability to touch, disengage and tough again, fluidly and without discontinuity
6. The ability to stay centered and calm regardless of danger, attempting to transcend the instinctual animal fight-or-flight reaction
7. Training aimed at being able to defend against high and low attacks from multiple opponents advancing at multiple angles
8. Bare hands versus weapons training

The classical fighting training exists on two levels. The lower level is concerned pragmatically with how to hurt or kill your opponent. The highest level, acheived by the famous Yang Lu Chuan who was called "The Invisible," is where, instead of hurting your opponents, you are able to throw them some distance through the air without hurting them at all, using nonviolent fa jin. An opponent who is not physically harmed is often relieved of an inner need to seek revenge.

Video: Tai Chi as a Martial Art
http://taichiprogram.s3.amazonaws.com/Tai-Chi-Martial-Arts-Intro.mp4

[marvin8]

From the traditional tai chi perspective, fighting called lan tsai hua is push hands with the following added:

1. Distance appreciation
2. Ability to flow between close, middle and long fighting distances
3. Fighting angles
4. Hitting, kicking, throwing, joint-locking, and the ability to absorb blows
5. The ability to touch, disengage and tough again, fluidly and without discontinuity
6. The ability to stay centered and calm regardless of danger, attempting to transcend the instinctual animal fight-or-flight reaction
7. Training aimed at being able to defend against high and low attacks from multiple opponents advancing at multiple angles
8. Bare hands versus weapons training

http://chiflow.com/html/Questions2.htm

Q: I ordered a Lan Cai Hua video from you last year and have enjoyed watching it since it arrived. I wonder whether you would let me know the answer to a couple of questions I have? First I was led to believe that Lan Cai Hua was a two person exercise and didn't realize that it could be practiced solo.Also the form you do on the video seems to have only a few techniques and postures (retreat step, beat the tiger, palm goes to meet the face and some cloud hands). Does this mean that all the other postures are not necessary?

A: To my knowledge Lan Cai Hua is a solo form that efficiently and precisely focuses on controlling the center line, gaining the dead angle, and retreating. The footwork follows the S-Curve of Yin and Yang, while the hands combine the fire element of the Five Methods with push palm (to meet face), transition to turn body to lotus swing, with retreat step to beat the tiger, then continues, connecting to repeat by using a variation on the fast set's cloud hands. These are optimized when practiced with a partner, but there is no traditional two person form for doing that. These techniques are not the only techniques that can be applied.

Many styles of internal martial arts especially use a Yin and Yang stepping technique or S-Curve pattern for training. In Jiang Rong Qiao's Pa Kua which I have also studied in the Earth palm of the Bagua Chi Kung they use a step that traverses the entire symbol combining the internal S Curve with the external sphere. In Jiang's Hsing I, the turns used in the forms are a fish step or half a symbol, then at the other end for the turn the other half. The footwork in Lan Cai Hua represents Wu's take on this concept, and it is very Pa Kua like in my opinion. Training lightness and mobility with T'ai Chi's precise traps, strikes, sweeps, and throws.

The Hsing I form is very like Hebei style Fire Fist, and specifically focuses on training Fa Jing with movement that aims at capturing both the center and the dead angle.

The Power Form again combines a series of simple, to the point movements that combine lightness in movement, fa jing (with the variation on single whip) in movement, and trains stability with footwork that sweeps, trips, and shin kicks.

However, as Ma once told me everything you want to know is on both the slow set and fast sets. These forms train the adrenals to relax and the practitioner to have confidence. Ultimately it is the quality of nothingness or emptiness that the learner wants to grasp and these are in the slow set and fast set. However, I will tell you that when I first saw these forms I thought they were nothing. When Ma did them and showed you how they were applied it really, for me, showed the inner power or magic by which an opponent would be sent flying with little or no force displayed at all.

I believe that learning and practicing these forms adds new ideas and awakens the practitioner to see the potential power that they can harness from the slow and fast sets and apply in self defense.

Mr. Peisheng pick up the broken flowers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DNqlwp_L3s

[marvin8]

Sorry, I don’t mean to bump this thread or veer off the topic. But, I just found this older rumsoakedfist thread discussing Lan Cai Hua, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=355. Here's some excerpts:

.
In Wu Taiji, some schools say that their curriculum includes 'Lan Cai Hua'. But they give it different meanings: either an bagua like form walking through the S-shape of the Yin-Yang symbol, or some sort of a two-person fighting set or drills.


Searching in youtube there is a Wu 2-person form, which looks very similar to Yang's:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em7p-zJbO0k


Gerald A. Sharp teaches two other indoor forms: Wu's Xingyi, Power Form (Canon Fist).

亂 luan4: random, without design
踩 cai3: stepping on
花 hua1: flower

The literal translation is "randomly stepping on flowers on the ground".

In Northern Wu style, this is the most advanced stage in the push hand curriculum - where you progress from single hand-fixed step-fixed routine, move on to two hand-fixed step-fixed routine, to moving step-fixed routine, to fixed step-no routine, to finally moving step-no routine (luan4 cai3 hua2). It's the step right before realistic fight training.

I have seen Lan Cai Hua form. It's very powerful, very fast, aggressive and no nonsense.

I like to think of it as Taiji for the streets.

Someday I plan on learning it but I believe a strong foundation in the 13 shoufa (which I just posted in the video section) is necessary if you want to understand and be able to apply the techniques of lan cai hua (and understand manipulating your opponent's arms for throwing and joint locks) otherwise you'll be doing the form but not necessarily understand what you are doing.

That's a very good question. I know Gerald's presentation of Lan Cai Hua and the applications for it. It contains a lot of angular entering, evading and reversing the directions. Very applicable.

Dr. Stephan Yan calls it "Taiji Sparring" and has a picture of Ma and himself practicing it.

Source: http://www.tai-chi.co.nz/wutaichi.html
Ma Yueliang was asked in an interview whether there was a form of free fighting in his style and he responded that it was called Lan Cai Hua. He also mentions this in some of his books.
Wang Peisheng writes in his book 'Wu style Taijiquan':

[...]; and finally there is "Free-flower picking" as a form of sparring.

CD

[KEND]

Looks like the thread got sidetracked. My thesis was that internal and external MA's are defined by the manner in which power is produced and used. At no time did I say that one or the other methods was superior. It is self evident that external is effective or professional boxing would have no knockouts. Another point however was brought up and that was training to fight in internal MA has been neglected, particularly in TCC. Push hands is an intermediate step, not fighting. I teach what I call 'slow fighting' as a prefighting two man [or woman] exercise where the bridge is maintained and a 'toolbox' of automatic responses is programmed. The 'external' method of fighting training simply does not work in this context

[Strange]

Appreciate the inclusion. I think many are still undecided.

it is s fundamental question; but i am not sure in this/our case the use of scientific reductive thinking
will be productive or more importantly "healthful". because i am not of the opinion that in our case
the mind and body to be separate in discussion. or put in another way: can/should a martial artist use
the mind to direct the body as if it were a machine available for command?

much like humans "building" the environment to suit our needs thinking is a separation of human from
the environment. but is this really the case?

The Liu He Ba Fa Fist teaches that strength comes from the 5 Sums and 9 Joints.
this form of narration/description is static and the consideration is that of a whole.
Strangely enough, i feel that the Yiquan's dynamic view that strength comes from infinitely minute
variation of angles to be most compatible with this view.

Further, LHBF teaching, it is not only movement that has strength.
Ding 定, or being fixed. stiff, immobile in position is also one the techniques.
it seemingly does not make sense; unless one considers this in relation to the movement
of the opponent.
in which case, the holistic concept further expands to include the opponent at hand (pun intended)

[kenneth fish]

Mr. Delves:

You know what they say about pearls......

[allen2saint]

I would suggest a 3rd way of looking at it, one that i use.
Its a matter of distinction, not that one is superior to the other.

I support this view.

[windwalker]

Mr. Delves:

You know what they say about pearls......

And thats your pearl?

AN ESSAY ON EXTERNAL AND INTERNAL MARTIAL ARTS

The OP Titles it as an essay. Some may or may not accept it. I dont happen to but others might.
On a discussion site one would think people would discuses it instead of alluding to some
metaphor that presents ones self as having an the understanding while others do not.

carry on

[onebir]

Looks like the thread got sidetracked.

Looks like it did; OP was very interesting, and probably overlaps with some of the discussion in this book:

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.co.il/201 ... earch.html

(I believe the author is a participant here?)