An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby Ron Panunto on Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:16 am

windwalker wrote:while I dont agree with the op essay

this outlines some studies done on it.

Can we measure Qi? Scientists have attempted to measure bioenergy or Qi, with varying success, using many different types of meters and instruments. Most promising have been the studies using voltmeters and magnetometers to measure the electrical and magnetic fields surrounding energy healers and Qigong practitioners. In Japan, Seto and colleagues (1992; 1996) recorded extremely large magnetic fields adjacent to the heads, bodies and hands of Qigong practitioners during breathing meditations and during external Qi emission.

Elmer Green and colleagues (1991) recorded surges in the electrostatic potential (“body-potential”) of healers during distant healing sessions at the Menninger Clinic in Kansas. In my laboratory in Terre Haute, Indiana, we have observed a distinct magnetic field waveform – a symmetrical chirp wave (0 ̶ 40Hz) – which appears with high frequency during energy healing sessions.

http://www.indiana.edu/~brain/measuring ... n-tai-chi/

In June, 2006, my student Danny LaPlante and I recorded magnetic field activity in several Tai Chi classrooms during Dr. Paul Lam’s 1-week workshop in West Terre Haute, Indiana. Most interestingly, we observed the ‘chirp wave’ (described above) in each of the classes we recorded, including the advanced Sun 73 form, the Sword form, and the Fan form (Figure 1).

Image


Pseudoscience.
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:21 pm

Pseudoscience.


thats it one word :-\

attaching a label to it, makes it so.

impressive :o

I happened to come on the site after reading this thread.
Considering my own work I was intrigued and contacted the site author directly.
she was kind enough to reply to some questions I had about her studies.

this is her bio

Margaret M. Moga

Associate Professor of Anatomy and Cell Biology
Indiana University School of Medicine - Terre Haute

Education:

PhD, Department of Anatomy, Loyola University of Chicago, 1988

Awards and Honors:

Indiana University Trustee Teaching Award 2007, 2014

Current research interests:

My research interest is to develop scientific measures of ‘energy healing’ and other bioenergetic phenomena involving focused intent. The sorts of questions that I am interested in: How do we measure the “putative energies” involved in biofield therapies such as Reiki, Qigong and Healing Touch? How do healers build-up charge in their bodies? Can emotions be detected in the local environment? My goals are, 1) to understand the energetic component of human psychophysiology, and 2) to develop medical devices that detect or therapeutically use these energies. Currently, I am studying the heart rate variability of energy healers and their clients, and the effects of healing on the immediate environment, as measured by magnetic field activity and random event generator output in the healing space (see study below

http://terrehaute.medicine.iu.edu/peopl ... et-m-moga/

Pseudoscience.


your biases for saying this is?
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby mixjourneyman on Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:03 am

Hi Dr.Delves, thanks for sharing.

I wonder if you have done any research into the relationship between hormonal responses to Qi cultivation, specifically the relationship between meditation and the release of b-endorphin?

My personal suspicion is that Qi Gong practice triggers certain hormonal and nervous reactions in the CNS and ANS that causes us to feel the sensations associated with Qi. Have you ever read Jiang Weiqiao's work on meditation? It is not about Qi Gong, but I think that some of his explanations about blood content of oxygen,co2 releasing more from deeper breathing, and the relationship between the two major nervous systems and the pre and post heaven states really shed quite a lot of light on the process of developing a "Qi body."

There is also a new but quickly developing body of work out of Korea that suggests there is a subtle electric circulation network overlaid on the circulatory system that basically accords to energy meridian theory.

http://healthandenergyacupuncture.com/scientific/
this link discusses some of the above mentioned.


Anecdotally, I remember my teacher mentioning that when he studied wild goose qi gong, his teacher once began to give off a strong smell of flowers. When he asked the other students what this was, they said it was "Dan Xiang." He felt that probably his teacher had developed a very high degree of certain hormones in her body and that on that day he was more sensitive than usual and could pick up on it.
I have also had a few experiences of Qi gong and meditation teachers augmenting the Qi field in my body. Once in Taizhong it was quite disconcerting, because the teacher made a sudden very hot feeling move from the lower dan tian to the top of my head along the du mai. He then told me that I had yet to completely open the MCO. I suspect that all of these things have rational explanations, but certainly it would be out of turn to disregard them purely as superstition. :)


edit:
I wasn't clear enough about the blood and co2 level comment. Jiang Weiqiao put forward the idea in his final essay "shiyinzi jing zuo weisheng baojian lun," that one of the key purposes of seated meditation was to allow the lungs to take in more oxygen and release more carbon dioxide, allowing the blood to oxygenate more richly and thus have a beneficial effect on the body. My teacher Yang Hai also has his own concept which is that the oxygen and co2 levels in the brain can be controlled through the breathing done in the meditation state, and one potential reason for some of the feelings experienced in this state is because of the change in the oxygen and co2 content in the brain. These are two different ideas and I seem to have conflated them. Sorry for any confusion.
Last edited by mixjourneyman on Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby BonesCom on Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:10 am

Mix, are you referring to the Bonghan Channel paper?

I don't think this is the original, I seem to remember some very grainy photo-images in the original paper, but here is one publication out of Korea regarding so-called Bonghan channels :

If you just want to read the unedited abstract:

A biophoton in connection with inter-cellular communication is introduced, with its important
source DNA. The Bonghan duct as anatomical structure of acupuncture meridians is considered
with its flowing contents, DNA-granules. A hypothesis of an optical channel of coherent biophotons
is proposed as a new communication and control network of photons, which is the physiological
function of Bonghan ducts. This can explain scientifically the therapeutic effects of acupuncture.


here is the full text link
https://www.liveoakacupuncture.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Scientific-Evidence-Found-For-Acupuncture-Channels.pdf

I don't even know where to start with how badly this is written, and how inconclusive their results are. I mean come on, DNA as a source of biophotons???

In the case of this paper, their scientific method was not sound and they interpreted their "results" to prove the Bonghan Channel existence, which they pretty much say they are going to do in the second section of the paper linked above.

At the end of the day, if things like faith healing, remote healing etc... (ie things that the academic at IU seems to research), had a real, measurable and reproducible benefit to the treatment of human disease then it would not be so hard to measure in a clinical setting...
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby mixjourneyman on Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:07 pm

Good to know, I don't know how to read bio-medical stuff so I'll have to take your word for it.

In regards to faith healing and so on, that is quite different from Qi Gong and meditation. Certainly there is a huge body of work on meditation, especially in regards to its effects on the CNS, and more recently in regards to its effect on the endocrine system. Qi Gong and meditation are if not precisely the same, at least very closely linked in theory, so I assume that it must work according to somewhat similar principles.
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby mixjourneyman on Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:16 pm

I just re-read your post, I agree with you that researching such things as faith healing can be a seriously bad thing if you do it from the perspective of wanting to prove something. I would think that reasonable researchers could possibly find out the mechanisms by which such things worked on people's minds, but looking for some kind of projection based energy mechanism would doubtless turn up dead ends.
In regard to this type of stuff, I think taking a practical approach is the best. Even though the classics might use certain types of language that seem superstitious in tone, it is important to understand their world view at the time and then use it to get the code of the document. Many people practice these methods without being taught how to read the code, so they end up with all kinds of superstitious world views. At least in the context of Daoism, religion, philosophy, and practice are all very interconnected and very practical. Any of the physical effects of practice can and should be measured in order to understand what occurs in the practice.
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby KEND on Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:24 am

Re: Biofield, much of research was done in Germany and the USSR, whether it is valid is open to question. I tried to stick to areas I was conversant with and could reproduce. The hormones may well be involved. Candace Pert's 'Molecules of Emotion made me aware of how the interaction of the body's lesser known parts affect our daily lives. Lynne McTaggarts' book on The Intention Experiment also is recommended. There is a lot of literature out there, but conclusive scientific studies are few and far between.
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby WongYing on Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:31 pm

Effects of meditation and or chi gung on sympathetic and parasympathtic nervous system, cortisol level and hormone function through changes and links to adrenal and thyroid function, increased oxygentaion and HRV
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby mixjourneyman on Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:13 pm

WongYing wrote:Effects of meditation and or chi gung on sympathetic and parasympathtic nervous system, cortisol level and hormone function through changes and links to adrenal and thyroid function, increased oxygentaion and HRV



Hi WongYing, do you have any papers discussing this that are worth checking out?
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby greytowhite on Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:04 pm

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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby KEND on Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:55 am

Excellent material, one thing puzzled me, I was under the impression that Faraday cages were made of iron since aluminum is minimally magnetic. Blood has a tiny magnetic field but appears to create magnetic effects even in the presence of larger fields. The research may validate some old folk says such as having your bed aligned with the earth's field or dowsing
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby Interloper on Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:30 pm

KEND wrote:Excellent material, one thing puzzled me, I was under the impression that Faraday cages were made of iron since aluminum is minimally magnetic. Blood has a tiny magnetic field but appears to create magnetic effects even in the presence of larger fields. The research may validate some old folk says such as having your bed aligned with the earth's field or dowsing


I worked for many years as an educator at the Museum of Science in Boston, Mass., and part of my job was doing the Van de Graaff generator demo -- on the original (and world's largest!) VdG generator. It was, quite literally, a blast. :D

The Faraday cage there is made of stainless steel, but any conductive metal will work on the cage. The electrons travel over just the surface layer of atoms, the "skin," and then down to the ground. You can touch the inside of the bars while the "lighting" is striking.

Here's a clip of part of a demo on the MOS VdG (not me doing the demo ... I worked at the MOS from 1982-1992)

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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby Ron Panunto on Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:30 pm

KEND wrote:Excellent material, one thing puzzled me, I was under the impression that Faraday cages were made of iron since aluminum is minimally magnetic. Blood has a tiny magnetic field but appears to create magnetic effects even in the presence of larger fields. The research may validate some old folk says such as having your bed aligned with the earth's field or dowsing


Faraday shields work via the electric field, not the magnetic field, so they can be made of anything that conducts electricity well, such as all metals, and they need not be magnetic.
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby everything on Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:41 pm

Lol okayyyy, btw, science doesn't work this way:

1. I don't personally feel anything. Therefore it doesn't exist.
2. We can't conduct double blind controlled experiments on x. Therefore x doesn't exist.

It's more the opposite:
- there is a null hypothesis saying there is no relationship between x and y.
- you do not prove there is a relationship; you try to reject the null hypothesis.

Ok, carry on...
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
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Re: An essay on IMA, part 3: Chigong

Postby GrahamB on Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:02 am

Bill wrote:Well, Ron

After 4 months of nui-gong I was at work and a co-worker came in with her arm in a cast from elbow to wrist. I asked her to place her arm on the counter and then I passed my hand, palm down, over her cast arm. At one point I could feel a pencil thick stream of cold air coming out of her cast covered arm. Pointing to the spot I told her that this is where you broke your arm. She was shocked and surprised and told me that that was exactly where she broke her arm. After that I had her turn around and close her eyes while I tried moving energy around inside her head. After a brief time she shouted for me to stop and that it felt to weird to her, like water moving around inside her skull. This was back in 1974.


Why would you think this proves the existence of anything? Isn't it just psychobabble you were doing to each other?
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