is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

[AL2016]

hi

iam french

i have studied yiquan with master cuiruibin and know it a little bit this art

and i know the different yiquan school 's method

one point

majority of yiquan school have their students from the beginner to the expert making at least one hour zhan zhuang by day

is it a good method when we know that wang xiang zhai 's students were all already expert in xingyi and other martial art

and that master sunlutang authorize one hour pilar still only to his best student (like master guo yun shen for wang xiang zhai when he was young)

so is yiquan a pedagogy for the elite that you give for beginner with danger of tension on the body as the body has not trained enought yet?

thanks

[RobP2]

Hi and bienvenue!

From experience I never found any increased benefits to an hour+ standing. It was interesting to do it from a psychological point of view, but I never found anything in it to make it worth doing that time amout over other activites

cheers

[Patrick]

I would research into a bit of exercise science and then would judge the aim of the exercise, the intensity and the volume.
You then could ask various questions:

a) In what category(ies) would the exercise fall? (strength, meditation, stability, flexibility etc.)
b) does the exercise give me the results that I want?
c) Is the intensity and the volume right? What do different studies say? Are analogies and comparisons possible etc.
and so on.

[cloudz]

It would also make a difference in terms of what and how you are doing it. You can put a lot of content in a ZZ.
The less content you have, the more diminishing the returns are over a given length of time of a single posture I imagine - in terms of certain aspects at least.
I think spreading an hour over a number of static postures is more palatable to me, as is working on any number of different methods.

1 hour can be not enough depending how much material you have to cover and how long you want to spend on each part.. in a fixed external position.

If say you are working on connection (in general), how could you quantify that.
I don't know if there is anything in exercise science that addresses this very well. Maybe there is?
Maybe Patrick can comment more as he is versed in exercise science.

[charles]

The obvious question is "good pedagogy for what?" In other words, for what goals or intended results is this, or is this not, a good method to achieve those goals. I suggest you need to start by defining what are your goals for your practice. Only then can you begin to determine if standing is helpful in achieving them. For example, if your goal is health, perhaps it is effective; if you goal is martial ability, and you have only an hour per day to devote to that goal, perhaps it is not so effective.

[yeniseri]

Zhanzhuang is a great exercise and an even better foundation but it is not and should not be the only activity within the far extensive exercise realm.
It is balance of activity that should be the goal meaning a combination of routines for strength, muscular coordination/fitness, some level of meditative routine and even some type and level of cardiovascular conditioning.

Perhaps a regimen of 20-30 minutes, 2-3X/day would fit into a better schedule! Try to seek you own personal balance. One (1) hour holding posture seems great but my gut feeling is that it would cause "stagnation" in the absence of movement. Remember you have to build up conditioning meaning starting with 5-10 min or so then increasing duration over time. That should not imply 1 hr being the only fitness/exercise activity. Mix it up

[mixjourneyman]

My personal opinion is that this type of intensive Zhan zhuang practice is mainly to teach people how to establish the six harmonies in their bodies from the outset of training.
The thing about standing is that it can't be totally static at all times, there has to be some movement. Even when you stand in zhan zhuang for a very long time, the body has to adjust itself or else the muscles will fatigue.
I personally think that Zhan Zhuang is used to teach the earth element in xingyiquan. When you look at how the five elements work, typically the other elements are born of the earth element. Earth is representative of the centre, of yi, and where yin and yang meet and mix together. Understanding the earth element is probably the most important philosophical component of the internal martial arts, and Zhan Zhuang is the fastest way to gain that understanding.
The issue is that it may not be obvious if you don't have some point of reference. My teacher always says "if you just stand and don't move for an hour, you will only tire yourself out."
Yi Quan has some special training about how to adjust the body in Zhan Zhuang right?
I think at the start of training, people need to just listen to their teacher, but later in the training, they need to investigate philosophical concepts and understand the relationship between yin and yang in practice.

ps. another use of zhan zhuang is to sink the unclean Qi in the body (yin qi/zhuo qi) and develop yang energy. This might also be explained by improving breathing and circulation, so that the blood is more enriched by oxygen and more co2 is put out when you exhale. That should lead to an invigorated feeling of "Qi" in the body.

[Bao]

Great for teachers. The best kind of pedagogy.

As a teacher:
1. You don't need to teach anything else of value. No imagination or thinking necessary.
2. You slow down the teaching process so you can keep the students paying more for learning less.
3. It gives you time to go errands, have a coffee or whatever.

[johnwang]

Great for teachers. The best kind of pedagogy.

As a teacher:
1. You don't need to teach anything else of value. No imagination or thinking necessary.
2. You slow down the teaching process so you can keep the students paying more for learning less.
3. It gives you time to go errands, have a coffee or whatever.

There are so many thing that's require your valuable training time. IMO, ZZ should not be a high priority in that list.

[Franklin]

if you listen to others you will never find the truth for yourself..

if you hear from many respected sources that something is good
you will never know unless you try it and experience it yourself..
then you can make your opinion based on something real..

just because consensus exists.. it doesn't make consensus truth in the big sense..
it just makes it generally agreed upon...

your truth will depend on your experience
your level of attainment
your chance for finding right teachers/knowledge
and what it is you decide you want for yourself..

[aiasthewall]

If your teacher has skills that you want, and you are certain that he or she is passing them on (look at the students), then training as the teacher asks is generally best practice, imo.

[mixjourneyman]

if you listen to others you will never find the truth for yourself..

if you hear from many respected sources that something is good
you will never know unless you try it and experience it yourself..
then you can make your opinion based on something real..

just because consensus exists.. it doesn't make consensus truth in the big sense..
it just makes it generally agreed upon...

your truth will depend on your experience
your level of attainment
your chance for finding right teachers/knowledge
and what it is you decide you want for yourself..

great stuff,
pass it on! +1

[zrm]

Perhaps a regimen of 20-30 minutes, 2-3X/day would fit into a better schedule! Try to seek you own personal balance. One (1) hour holding posture seems great but my gut feeling is that it would cause "stagnation" in the absence of movement. Remember you have to build up conditioning meaning starting with 5-10 min or so then increasing duration over time. That should not imply 1 hr being the only fitness/exercise activity. Mix it up

I don't practice yi quan but we do a form of zhuan zhang in our art.

I always found doing a 20-30 min block was the best. Starting at 5 minute and increasing duration over time is also best practice. But I would also add that standing for extended periods without the right foundation and without knowing what to focus on is pretty pointless. In my opinion beginners should work at doing about 10-15 minutes with proper posture. Standing for 30 mins or more is better reserved for experienced people that have decent foundation.

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDP3sfJCuI

the marital artist of today seek skills they are not ready to achieve.

[willie]

example, if your goal is health, perhaps it is effective; if you goal is martial ability, and you have only an hour per day to devote to that goal, perhaps it is not so effective.

your correct, there is too much other work to be done.