LHPF - training methodology?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Finny on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:15 pm

Well, I've been here a long time, and chime in occasionally if I can, but I haven't ever started many threads. Finding myself with a little time, I thought I'd ask a couple of questions that have been on my mind for a while.

Inspired by the recent 'fun form' thread, seeing that Drake is still around, and I think Strange, and Wanderingdragon are LHPF peeps - I was wondering if you guys are able to describe the training methods used? It seems that much like TJQ, the principal practice revolves around the zhu ji form? I know of the animal forms, which are (IIRC) derived from parts of the zhu ji? Is there a progressive 'sticky hands' or push hands type of training? Would you describe LHPF as a grappling focussed art? Striking based, or mix of both? Are there striking drills? What about the heavy ball stuff - is that important or a minor supplement to the training?

Many thanks for any info - LHPF has always fascinated me, particularly after seeing Choi sifu perform - his movement is amazing. Is his school still around? I think I remember hearing that he retired from teaching a while back; I hope he is in good health.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:06 am

I will break the silence by saying our training methodology is much the same as taichi, our form offers more technique for which to train our intent. The animals offer us understanding of types of force to be used in different situations and our pushing, IMO is strictly to hone our sensitivity. Our greatest training tool is in our stepping, which offers a detailed understanding of open, close, substantial and not as well as centered, and structural integrity in motion. Only two cents and just mine Carlton
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Yeung on Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:11 am

Liu He Ba Fa 六合八法 was a Manchurian development of Chinese Martial Arts in the late 1880s with special focus on Xingyiquan, Taijiquan, and Baguaquan which were very popular at that time. I think it is best to review it similar to the development of Chen Style Taijiquan in terms of methodology. It is a mixture of mixture of ideas and techniques from External and Internal Chinese Martial Arts. According to Kam Tung, a student of Chan Yik Yan (Che Yi Ren) 陈亦人, in the documentary produced by HKTV he does not differentiate external and internal arts. Both Liu He Ba Fa and Chen Taijiquan have difficulties in developing the adherent techniques or simply skills in neutralization. And both arts are very political in their development by the Qing administrators and the Communist Chinese cadres.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:02 pm

Yeung, thank you for that comment. I would appreciate more historical information and sources concerning how LHBF was indeed developed from the other Neijia arts. Also interested why you deem it 'Manchurian'. Thanks!
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Strange on Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:58 pm

Yeung wrote:According to Kam Tung, a student of Chan Yik Yan (Che Yi Ren) 陈亦人, in the documentary produced by HKTV he does not differentiate external and internal arts.


what GM Chen said was that one should not judge a practitioner and their skill based on it appearing hard or soft

for you comparative statement regarding LHBF and Chen Taiji and also on Qing administrators and Chinese Communist Cadres
could you please cite the study or research your statement is based on. thanks
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Yeung on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:06 am

jonathan.bluestein wrote:Yeung, thank you for that comment. I would appreciate more historical information and sources concerning how LHBF was indeed developed from the other Neijia arts. Also interested why you deem it 'Manchurian'. Thanks!


Wu Yihui was a Manchurian, and there is no evidence that Chen Tuan 陈抟 (871—989) had any association with Martial Arts. The claim of lineage to Chen Tuan predated Zhang Sanfeng, and only people with political backing can make such claim during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1912). The Muslim community in China has well preserved the original version of Xin Yi Liu He which can be a usual source of Neijia development.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Yeung on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:25 am

Strange wrote:
Yeung wrote:According to Kam Tung, a student of Chan Yik Yan (Che Yi Ren) 陈亦人, in the documentary produced by HKTV he does not differentiate external and internal arts.


what GM Chen said was that one should not judge a practitioner and their skill based on it appearing hard or soft

for you comparative statement regarding LHBF and Chen Taiji and also on Qing administrators and Chinese Communist Cadres
could you please cite the study or research your statement is based on. thanks


Zhongguo wu shu shi yong da quan / Kang Gewu bian zhu. 中國武術實用大全 / 康戈武編著.( Chinese martial arts practical encyclopaedia / Compiled by Kang Gewu), 1990, page: 186. And Chen Yiren published a number of books which you can refer to for reference.

Both Liu He Ba Fa and Chen Taijiquan disputed the origin of Neijia Quan, and their claims are political rather than based on evidence.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Strange on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:26 am

right...
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Overlord on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:56 am

Hi Yeung,

Just let you know, Kang's teacher Sha Guozheng won't dare make such a comment because Sha's teacher Jiang Rongqiao, verify LHBF is definitely not Taijish~ modern days modern wushuist like to make up modern theory to make believe. But that is just not true~

Guo Yunsheng do zz with leg hook to the door frame~
Famous Hong Yixiang have special secret method for zz~
No modern theory, just old school zz~
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Finny on Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:40 am

Thanks for the replies all - particularly Carlton; while I am interested in the history of the art I'm specifically curious about the training. So I understand that the principal teaching device is the form, with particular emphasis on stepping, and pushing to refine sensitivity.. are there any other two person training devices, anything other than pushing? Is there anything to cover the gap between pushing and free sparring? I'm picturing an shen pao (? the xyq two man form thing) type of training?
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:49 am

our training methodology is much the same as taichi


Choi sifu even said he does his taiji, lama in LHBF way. Correct me if it is not true. Taichi trains DaiTien and LHBF focuses on six points. You can see from the 1st generation's performance.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:29 am

One would have a valid comment after involving in it like Jiang Rongqiao did. 康戈武 didn't learn from his grand master.

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Have you even talked to the son of WuYiHui about his father's kungfu? BTW, he was a little kid when his father passed away.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby chinwoo1956 on Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:45 am

Both Zhang Changxin and Zhao Daoxin were famous students of Wu YiHui does anyone have info on there approach to Liuhebafa? not famous for methods and theory just fighting?.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:13 am



Student of Zhang Changxin doing LHBF.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Overlord on Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:39 am

Image

Yeah~
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