LHPF - training methodology?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:26 pm

Once we get it, dump it quick. It's an one night stand.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby I am... on Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:00 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:I will relay my path, which has helped gain quite some understanding, as I said it begins with the stepping

https://youtu.be/LP7YpcwogIE

From which we learn the path from which all force is generated, the stepping introduces us to solid and complete and unified structure, it gives us an awareness of the center from where all movement begins.

https://youtu.be/Zo4dvvOQdzU

Here we are shown the most basic understanding, how force is generated from the center, to touch the hand is to touch the foot and all in between it is the connection that is the communication, without a complete connection of all parts the message cannot be passed and tension arises. Here like spring to touch the top and the bottom pushes back. I have likened it to a bottle of water, when tapped the ripples go straight to the center to return continually, until the agitation is stilled, this IMO, is the basis essence of sensitivity. This is fighting, and the use of any technique in the Arsenal in the foundational form Zhu Ji, to still any agitation. From this basic understanding all else springs.


Thanks for posting those.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Strange on Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:20 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:Once we get it, dump it quick. It's an one night stand.


ha ha ha Magnificent, Brother, most magnificent!
and my most humble respect to your shifu/teacher :D

like some senile old man, we forget
only to faintly remember when the feeling comes back
they call me fortune cookie cos they dun understand muah ha ha ha ha

the flower blossom, and it wilts
it is the natural way
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby suckinlhbf on Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:18 pm

Strange,
Not all my teachers like the one night stand thing. One at his 70's said he could last for two hours. He taught me but I made him disappointed.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Yeung on Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:03 am

Strange wrote:thanks for sharing
all above knowledge are surely advance level
i would just like to add whether 5 direction or 8, the actual requirement is omni-directional
yes for sure, there are criteria for the practitioner as road signs
but it is important to take care not to lose the "natural"
if become unnatural it goes against the dao, this may become skill not able to manifest.
then would be counter productive


You are applying static qigong training methodology to LHBF, and it does not work. Chen Tuan's 24 seasonal dao yin exercise can be consider as a kind of dynamic qigong exercise, and dao yin in his context means direct and stretch according to the ancient method of daoyin based on the 11 meridians prior to 200 BC. The 5 directions are the centers point to the sky in doing meditation, in Taijiquan it is the 5 steps of 4 directions plus the center. In the 5 character song of LHBF there is the saying of 5 total and 9 section strength, and the 5 is referring to the 5 bows of the body and 9 is referring to the joints. In a way small heaven type of qiqong is not applicable as well, as daoyin is based on the large heaven and work with the normal meridians.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:40 pm

Yeung,
Its enjoyable to read your post, very informative and interesting.
I did learn LHBF from Chen Yiren and Wan Tin Hung lineages, and not in it anymore so I have no burden on style, lineage, history of it. I would tell honestly what I think.

You are applying static qigong training methodology to LHBF

Can you elaborate?

it does not work

I don't see too many people get to a good level with LHBF other than a few who are already good before starting it. Would it be the training programme or ... ????? How would you think?

Chen Tuan's

LHBF links itself to Chen Yuen as founder. A close friend of Wu Ying Wah told me Wu said he had promoted the art because it was his father's art. So my friend interpreted it as LHBF was created by Wu YiHui. Do you have any information? Never heard Wu YiHui had classmates. Didn't heard Wu YiHui learn Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji either.

5 bows of the body

I read from a manuscript of Chen that it was "five hearts on each other". I heard Lung Wah talked about 5 bows before but had no idea where it came from.

In a way small heaven type of qiqong is not applicable as well, as daoyin is based on the large heaven and work with the normal meridians

I don't think LHBF works on small heaven, and either large heaven. I think it is on "zhong mai". And I think Daoyin and martial arts are two different things.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Yeung on Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:56 pm

Suckinlhbf,

Who is Wan Tin Hung, can you provide his name in Chinese?

Wu Yihui and Chen Yiren’s book did provide a lineage but they cannot verify it back to Chen Tuan. So, it is possible that the Manchurian rulers before them worked on the known ideas of Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua.

The concept of 5 bows is from Xingyi, and my argument with Lung Wah years ago before he passed away was 3 bows instead of 5 with 6 directions, and with 气海贴命门Qi Hai attached to Ming Men will make up to 8 directions.

Small heaven qigong focus on the Ren and Du meridians, and I don’t know enough about the Chong Mai to discuss its implication with you:

Chong Mai: Penetrating Vessel
The master point of the Chong is Spleen 4, which is combined with Pericardium 6 on the yin wei mai channel. This pair affects the heart, chest and stomach. This "vital passage" regulates the flow of qi and blood in the 12 regular meridians, and is significant in gynecological disorders, digestive issues, prolapses, and problems with the heart. Energetically, it relates to intergenerational patterns, issues arising from abuse, and cellular memory. Psychospiritually, an imbalance in the Chong meridian negatively impacts our self-acceptance and self-love. (http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/ ... p?id=30252).

Maybe you can elaborate on the Chong Mai. Xingyiquan's 5 element fist form identified with the 6 solid organs and the 6 Yin meridians. In practice, it compresses the organs and stretch the meridians individually.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Strange on Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:26 am

Yeung, please do not make assumptions, conjecture and make unnecessary jumps to conclusions
i did not tell you or anyone what kind of qigong i do
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Overlord on Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:34 am

suckinlhbf wrote:Once we get it, dump it quick. It's an one night stand.


Yep, guess once you have too much dinner and full, I think you no longer need to eat~:)

Anyway, too much theory is really not the best. Cheers~
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Strange on Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:53 am

Yeung wrote:My conjecture on支撑八面 zhi cheng ba mian (stretching to eight sides) from打手要言 Essentials of Playing Hands, The Taijiquan Classics, as follows:

Add Laogong 劳宫Pc8 to the suggested 6 points and you will have the following pairs:

Bai Hui百会GV20 - Changqiang长强GV1
Qihai气海CV6 - Ming Men命门GV4
Laogong 劳宫Pc8, left and right
Yong quan涌泉Ki1, left and right

Five hearts should be five centres:

Centre of the head: Bai Hui百会20GV
Centres of the palms: Laogong 劳宫Pc8, left and right
Centres of the soles: Yong quan涌泉Ki1, left and right

Thus the torso, arms and legs or the 15 joints are connected together to move simultaneously.

Apart from the relationship between Qihai and Mingmen the others are very straight forward.


It is a common misunderstanding that knowing (for example) the route of the minor and major heaven orbit
a practitioner can make it happen
in the end what one is feeling is just all illusory
these ppl who misunderstand then tell ppl that they are highly skilled and then get their asses kicked
then ppl laugh at chinese kungfu and say it is all nonsense.

minor and major heaven orbit does not take place because you know them, neither does qigong.
they will manifest themselves when you qi energy is full and you are natural
but do not split hair here with me and say that i mean the conscious mind is not involved at all
what i am saying is that if you qi and energy has not reach the required level, there is nothing your conscious mind can do
no matter how detail you know the subject.
my opinion is that the more you know the worse it is for you
cos you move away from the natural
Last edited by Strange on Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:00 am

Wu Yihui and Chen Yiren’s book did provide a lineage but they cannot verify it back to Chen Tuan. So, it is possible that the Manchurian rulers before them worked on the known ideas of Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua.

It is still unable to verify where LHBF comes from. And it is getting more and more mysterious. Anyhow, LHBF is very delicate and subtle in its theory and technique. The one who created it should be a genius.
The concept of 5 bows is from Xingyi

I have spent some many years in LHBF and Xinyi, and don't see 5 bows are their major. Chen's taiji may be. Throughout the years, I have seen too many people tried to feed their knowledge from Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji and whatever they know into LHBF to fill in the blank. Its the modern LHBF, nothing wrong. Martial arts do not have styles, internal, & external etc in the original source. They are just names created by the practitioners after.
Maybe you can elaborate on the Chong Mai

When you are there, you will smile.
too much theory is really not the best

Right on. I had the luxury to have a few years time doing nothing other than reading whatever kungfu literatures I could find, trained, and slept. I realized eventually the best would be do it with belief and the destination was the same no matter how I did it. The simpler the belief is, the better.
when you qi energy is full and you are natural

I find it is the best approach. But what is it? Like everybody think they are relax enough. But to what extent>
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Yeung on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:20 am

Strange wrote:Yeung, please do not make assumptions, conjecture and make unnecessary jumps to conclusions
i did not tell you or anyone what kind of qigong i do


When you mentioned "omi-directional" and "Natural", I think I have a fair idea what kind of "qi-gong" your are doing. However, I did make the assumption that this thread is about the training methodology of LHBF for martial purpose. From my observation is that LHBF practitioners do not advocate neutralization, and the writing of Zhao Daoxin did not differentiate between neutralizing and utilizing incoming force. Xingyiquan classics did mention visible strength, conceal strength, and neutralization. I can only look to Chen Taijiquan and Yiquan, as they are similar in the development of Fa Jin instead of Hua Jin. Therefore, there should be some fundamental different training methodologies between them and classical Xingyiquan and Taijiquan.
Last edited by Yeung on Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:55 am

Is there a difference between neutralizing and utilizing incoming force, all force must be neutralized, before you can take it as your own. I think the information you seek is in explanation of the eight methods, public knowledge to be googled by any and all.


氣 QI: Chi

骨 GU: Bone

形 XING: Shape

隨 SUI: Follow

提 TI: Rise

還 HUAN: Return

勒 LE: Retain

伏 FU: Conceal

In simplistic terms, the last five listed all deal with neutralizing, IMO
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby suckinlhbf on Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:53 pm

LHBF trains to contain all eight methods in every move.
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Re: LHPF - training methodology?

Postby Strange on Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:06 pm

Yeung, your reply is very amusing to me
because it purports that you know me better than i know myself

you observations are wrong, LHBF and its practitioners have nothing against "neutralization".
in this case, what is the meaning of methodology?
it is asking for a description of path that LHBF practitioners have walked on
do you know LHBF?
do you practice it?
do you teach it??
if not, name dropping xingyi, taichi, yiquan have no meaning

your writing is a mess of confusion.
i say again, if you do not know, say so
do not assume
it is laughable
Last edited by Strange on Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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