Fight with Tai Chi? What does it FEELS like?

[Bao]

I wrote a blog post about how it is to fight with Tai Chi. Not from a technical view, but how it feels like and how the mind reacts. It's a very personal thing I wrote, something based on my own personal experience only. I usually don't like to open up this much, but I think there are some important things to share. Read it if you like:

https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... chi-chuan/

What kind of experience do you have from your own POV? Something similar or very different? It would be interesting to hear about your thoughts.

[hodmeist]

I really enjoyed the blog. Nothing compares to personal experience and I found yours interesting. Thanks for posting.
One early experience I had with Tai Chi fighting was around twenty years ago, my disabled step-father was attacked whilst walking to his local convenience shop and briefly hospitalised. The attacker was a well known "face" therefore, perhaps foolishly in some peoples eyes, I sought him out and gave him an absolute hiding. I remember throwing him to the floor and kicking his ribs in. A screaming female neighbour brought me to my senses by shouting she had called the police....
During the altercation, I felt nothing expect this strange adrenalin feeling which swept through me and made me shiver with nervousness. Although I gave him a beating I was very self critical of my "performance" as I did not recall using any of the postures from the form and my torso was black and blue with bruising the next day due to him striking me with head and fist. I now reflect that the timing, conditioning and balance from Tai Chi got me through it and not a specific tactic or application from the form. Despite obviously getting hit during the fight, I felt nothing at the time but I do admit to having no control over the adrenalin which gripped me. That worried me and I would not know if that would be any different now.

[willie]

An accompaniment.

[GrahamB]

Yes!

Timing and distance management are not the two most important things for fighting 'with Tai Chi' - they're the two most important things for fighting, full stop.

[middleway]

When I first experienced Tai Chi 'application' it was a chap that would later become my student and it was very standard stuff I liked it all but was heavily into Daito Ryu at the time and it was nothing ground breaking.

Later Alex showed me his Tai Chi application ... it was after an extended period training with Chen Yuen San I believe. It was something i had never encountered before and the power was immediately shocking and horrible to encounter and experience.

Now and at the time, I likened it to how imagine fighting a thunder cloud, nothing tangible until you get struck by lightening Chen Yuen San had the same sort of thing about him when I had a short exchange with him.

Whenever i think about Tai Chi for fighting this is how i remember it feeling and what i try to emulate.

[willie]

When I first experienced Tai Chi 'application' it was a chap that would later become my student and it was very standard stuff I liked it all but was heavily into Daito Ryu at the time and it was nothing ground breaking.

Later Alex showed me his Tai Chi application ... it was after an extended period training with Chen Yuen San I believe. It was something i had never encountered before and the power was immediately shocking and horrible to encounter and experience.

Now and at the time, I likened it to how imagine fighting a thunder cloud, nothing tangible until you get struck by lightening Chen Yuen San had the same sort of thing about him when I had a short exchange with him.

Whenever i think about Tai Chi for fighting this is how i remember it feeling and what i try to emulate.

that sounds just about right. short, sharp and shocking.

[cloudz]

Well... I like what Chris said about clouds... Alex is an incredible CIMA teacher, for good reason.

My answer would be "hua" though as described in large part to me (and the rest of you) by DGlenn.
I don't want to bore everyone with all the details of my experiences. But if you also work with "wu wei" when you exchange then you recognise/experience it as a feeling too .. IMHO..
Transforming an attack into a counter.

I live to be attacked and receive attacks and harm coming my way.. I try to live it and breathe it as much as I can.
A bit like a persecution complex!

Bao, I love it when people share their experiences like you have in your blog, nice and honest. No agenda to speak of.
Just sharing your doing of something you love and have a passion for a CIMA (the whole point of this board?), a bit of "fighting" can be good for the soul.. for some more than others.

Control of timing and distance is probably the absolutely crucial factor for the accomplished counter fighter.
I'll throw position and sensitivity in there too.

Thank you for sharing.

[Bao]

I really enjoyed the blog. Nothing compares to personal experience and I found yours interesting. Thanks for posting.

Thanks for the feedback, appreciate it. And thanks for sharing.

An accompaniment.

Interesting choice of words.

Yes!
Timing and distance management are not the two most important things for fighting 'with Tai Chi' - they're the two most important things for fighting, full stop.

What I, ime, think is interesting in TCC, BJJ and in a few other arts as well, is that you can't really compensate lack of timing with something else. You really need to learn how to do the right thing at the right moment. If you are a smaller guy against larger, stronger people, or you have other things as disadvantage, there is often no escape and no second chance if you do something wrong. I am not a strong guy, so there is no room for mistakes or gambling.

. It was something i had never encountered before and the power was immediately shocking and horrible to encounter and experience.
...
Whenever i think about Tai Chi for fighting this is how i remember it feeling and what i try to emulate.

Interesting. To meet good tai chi practitioners can indeed be shocking and frightening, but for various reasons. Mostly, I thing it's because it feels every different to meet a good IMA practitioner. But I bet that you could still run down a few of them, even a few of the seemingly very impressive, if you have the courage to try that.

Bao, I love it when people share their experiences like you have in your blog, nice and honest. No agenda to speak of.
Just sharing your doing of something you love and have a passion for a CIMA (the whole point of this board?), a bit of "fighting" can be good for the soul.. for some more than others.
...
Thank you for sharing.

Thank you for your kind words. Many people who writes or blog about the subject have a very dogmatic attitude, that "this is right", "that is wrong". I don't like absolute rules, or repeating what others have said, or following something without thinking. I see my path in Tai Chi as a personal journey. I know the path I want to travel and I am comfortable with what I am doing. So I don't really care about what others think. But I hope that having a personal approach and sharing my experience can inspire people who do not yet have the confidence to follow their own voices and judgment, people who listen too much on all of the sacred loud mouths out there.

[windwalker]

I live to be attacked and receive attacks and harm coming my way.. I try to live it and breathe it as much as I can.
A bit like a persecution complex!

Taiji has IMO a unique way of dealing with things.

TAIJI’S BOOSTING OR DISSIPATING ENERGY & STRENGTH

補瀉氣力於自己難補瀉氣力於人亦難補自己者知覺功虧則補運動功過則瀉所以求諸己不易也補於人者氣過則補之力過則瀉之此勝彼敗所由然也氣過或瀉力過或補其理雖一然其有詳夫過補為之過上加過遇瀉為之緩他不及他必更過仍加過也補氣瀉力於人之法均為加過於人矣補氣名曰結氣法瀉力名曰空力法
There is difficulty in boosting or dissipating your own energy and strength. There is also difficulty in boosting or dissipating the energy and strength of the opponent. When your awareness is insufficient, boost [your energy]. When your movement is overdone, dissipate [your strength]. These are things that are not easy matters when it comes to yourself.

When the opponent has too much energy, boost it. When he has too much strength, dissipate it. By this means, you will win and he will lose. Or you may when he has too much energy, dissipate it, or when he has too much strength, boost it. The principle is the same in either case, and yet to elaborate further: if he has too much [of either], add more so that he is overdoing, or if he has too little [of either], dissipate it further so that in his insufficiency he adds more and again ends up overdoing. Both boosting his energy and dissipating his strength induce him to overdo it. Boosting his energy is called the method of “tying up his energy”. Dissipating his strength is c

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

what is meant by "energy and strength" is also outlined.
interesting reading.

In my own work, I've found the hardest thing in engaging with others is "allowing" instead of "doing" different mind set...

[marvin8]

I thought that was a great article. I found it honest, practical and insightful. More than any one technique, it’s your training in tai chi that gives you the calm, relaxed tai chi body and mind that helps you move efficiently in the heat of a fight. You also included the importance of timing, distance, angles and position, which all are in tai chi. However, it tends not to be mentioned as much, as it may be considered too basic.

I also appreciated middleway’s comment on experiencing high level skills. The defense is there (not there, like a cloud), but the extreme power is there, at the same time.

[willie]

I live to be attacked and receive attacks and harm coming my way.. I try to live it and breathe it as much as I can.
A bit like a persecution complex!

Taiji has IMO a unique way of dealing with things.


different mind set...

hi windy. a different mind set and a different body set.

[yeniseri]

I am clueless as to what someone means by this! Fighting with taiji seems out of this world but I guess it means if the person can use it in a fighting situation.
I would quicker ask if someone can kick, block, throw, etc within a fighting context as opposed to fighting with taijiquan. Just me, I will add

[Bao]

I thought that was a great article. I found it honest, practical and insightful.

I also appreciated middleway’s comment on experiencing high level skills. The defense is there (not there, like a cloud), but the extreme power is there, at the same time.

Thanks, I appreciate that you find it so.

Middleway had a good input. Though I find focusing on power detrimental to the tai chi mind set. The only two times that I have really hurt someone, I never thought about it or planned to. And for me it felt like nothing. If you feel, or try to feel strength or power, it means that the strength/power get stuck in your own body. Power is an expression felt on your opponent. The focus should still be on calmness and balance. I like the word "emptiness", but I know this word means little for many. Trying to feel powerful is, imho, going the wrong way. If you need it, it will be there. The hardest part I think, is to put confidence in what really represents tai chi and most IMA. People usually try to take short cuts and keep adding things from other styles to compensate their lack of confidence and "faith". But, imho, these are the most important things to make it work.

hi windy. a different mind set and a different body set.

on the other quote getting attacked is no fun. do you know that some coward neg. my video right away. lol!
they don't know shit...my stuff comes right from the top...personally I would rather be attacked in the street by someone I can get my f...ing hands on.
then get attacked on the net by cowards with hidden agenda's who don't know shit and who are embarrassed by those who do.

Ot, but you take it too personally. Don't care about others. You do a great thing by showing yourself and what you do.

I would quicker ask if someone can kick, block, throw, etc within a fighting context as opposed to fighting with taijiquan. Just me, I will add

Shouldn't anyone with some ma or sparring experience be able to do that? Is that more interesting to discuss?

I know a few who would ask the same as you do. I appreciate that you share your honest reaction.

[lazyboxer]

Middleway had a good input. Though I find focusing on power detrimental to the tai chi mind set. The only two times that I have really hurt someone, I never thought about it or planned to. And for me it felt like nothing. If you feel, or try to feel strength or power, it means that the strength/power get stuck in your own body. Power is an expression felt on your opponent. The focus should still be on calmness and balance. I like the word "emptiness", but I know this word means little for many. Trying to feel powerful is, imho, going the wrong way. If you need it, it will be there.

+100 QFT

[marvin8]

I also appreciated middleway’s comment on experiencing high level skills. The defense is there (not there, like a cloud), but the extreme power is there, at the same time.

Middleway had a good input. Though I find focusing on power detrimental to the tai chi mind set. The only two times that I have really hurt someone, I never thought about it or planned to. And for me it felt like nothing. If you feel, or try to feel strength or power, it means that the strength/power get stuck in your own body. Power is an expression felt on your opponent. The focus should still be on calmness and balance. I like the word "emptiness", but I know this word means little for many. Trying to feel powerful is, imho, going the wrong way. If you need it, it will be there. The hardest part I think, is to put confidence in what really represents tai chi and most IMA. People usually try to take short cuts and keep adding things from other styles to compensate their lack of confidence and "faith". But, imho, these are the most important things to make it work.

That's how I took middleway's comment as the power was retained, not that it was focused on. The power is there to be used, to whatever degree is necessary. Not that your goal is to emit as much pain as you can on someone. The impression I got from middleway is Chen Yuen San, through calmness, was able to access much power, if needed.

I thought this might fit in here somewhere, but not sure. An excerpt from a Louis Swain discussion,

In Li Yiyu’s “Five Key Words,” he stated: “Empty does not mean completely devoid of strength (li), and full does not mean to completely stand firm (zhan sha).” This understanding is echoed in Yang Chengfu’s discussion of empty and full in the legs in his “Discussion of Taijiquan Practice,” where he said, “What is here called empty is not void, for its power is not yet disconnected, but reserved and retained in the intention of the changes of expansion and contraction. What is called full is simply that it is sound and real—without excessive use of energy, which would mean use of fierce strength.