is all neijia same principle?same family?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby AL2016 on Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:58 am

hi

yichuan xing yi seem to use explosive poyer hurting
taiji seem to use empty power and playing with opponent balance

bagua power used in round

so is there different family of martial art inside neijia?


thanks
Last edited by AL2016 on Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby Yeung on Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:52 am

The Central Guoshu Academy (Zhongyang Guoshuguan, 中央國術館/中央国术馆) established by the National Government in 1928, grouped Xingyi, Taiiji and Bagua together as Neijia under the Wudang Department and the others under Shaolin. As you have pointed out these arts are very different. Actually Neijiaquan disappeared in 1669 during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1912), but Taijiquan acknowledged its lineage to Neijiaquan. Xingyi and Yiquan and Liuhebafa acknowledged their lineage to Xinyiliuhe developed from Xinyiba 心意把 of Shaolin. Very little is known regarding Baguaquan developed or taught by Dong Haichuan (1779 or 1813 -1882). The forms and fighting strategies of these arts are very different but they seem to have developed some similarities in neutralization or Hua Jin 化劲。So, what neutralization technique(s) have you learned?
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby AL2016 on Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:12 pm

Thanks for your answer

Actually Neijiaquan disappeared in 1669 during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1912),


Can you tell more?

but Taijiquan acknowledged its lineage to Neijiaquan. Xingyi and Yiquan and Liuhebafa acknowledged their lineage to Xinyiliuhe developed from Xinyiba 心意把 of Shaolin


So origin xing yiquan liuhe is not neijia ?
And lineage of taiji is wudang origin?

So its wudang vs shaolin opposite double axe origin?

I have learned yichuan for intensive 7years

And i notice that the difference of relaxation of the arm
In yichuan xingyi white crane more tense and the goal is to catch the opponent attack and to punch him by explosive power

Vs

Taiji bagua the arm is so light like yang cheng fu taolu s picture like a cloud
And the goal is to attrack the opponent in a trap to play with his balance

Very subtil
Last edited by AL2016 on Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby Bao on Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:54 pm

Yeung wrote:The Central Guoshu Academy (Zhongyang Guoshuguan, 中央國術館/中央国术馆) established by the National Government in 1928, grouped Xingyi, Taiiji and Bagua together as Neijia under the Wudang Department and the others under Shaolin. As you have pointed out these arts are very different.


True. But these arts were allready known collectively known as wudang arts and called "neijiaquan" many years earlier. There was a group who called themselves the "wudang boxing association", people who were in this group studied tai chi, bagua and xingyi. Cheng Tinghua was there and later Sun Lutang joined. They all recognized Taoist origin of their arts, including xingyiquan, and shared the same terminology. Some branches of Xingyi might have had this influence in later stages of the development of the branches. But Tai Chi also share the same origin as much Shaolin. However, this shaolin is not any kind of Changchuan or the kind of Shaolin people today usually associate with this name.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby Yeung on Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:49 am

Bao wrote:
Yeung wrote:The Central Guoshu Academy (Zhongyang Guoshuguan, 中央國術館/中央国术馆) established by the National Government in 1928, grouped Xingyi, Taiiji and Bagua together as Neijia under the Wudang Department and the others under Shaolin. As you have pointed out these arts are very different.


True. But these arts were allready known collectively known as wudang arts and called "neijiaquan" many years earlier. There was a group who called themselves the "wudang boxing association", people who were in this group studied tai chi, bagua and xingyi. Cheng Tinghua was there and later Sun Lutang joined. They all recognized Taoist origin of their arts, including xingyiquan, and shared the same terminology. Some branches of Xingyi might have had this influence in later stages of the development of the branches. But Tai Chi also share the same origin as much Shaolin. However, this shaolin is not any kind of Changchuan or the kind of Shaolin people today usually associate with this name.

Well, Sun Liutang and Yang Chengfu and Fu Zhensong were working together in the Central Guoshu Academy as head teachers. So, there must be some agreements between them. In Sun Liutang's writing on Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua, the lineages of these arts are clearly different. I think Sun Liutang did suggested that these arts sort of coming to similar conclusion from different training methods.
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby Yeung on Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:26 am

AL2016 wrote:Thanks for your answer

Actually Neijiaquan disappeared in 1669 during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1912),


Can you tell more?

but Taijiquan acknowledged its lineage to Neijiaquan. Xingyi and Yiquan and Liuhebafa acknowledged their lineage to Xinyiliuhe developed from Xinyiba 心意把 of Shaolin


So origin xing yiquan liuhe is not neijia ?
And lineage of taiji is wudang origin?

So its wudang vs shaolin opposite double axe origin?

I have learned yichuan for intensive 7years

And i notice that the difference of relaxation of the arm
In yichuan xingyi white crane more tense and the goal is to catch the opponent attack and to punch him by explosive power

Vs

Taiji bagua the arm is so light like yang cheng fu taolu s picture like a cloud
And the goal is to attrack the opponent in a trap to play with his balance

Very subtil


Zhao Daoxin 赵道新 (1908-1990) learned Bagua and Xingyi, and then Yiquan, and then Liuhebafa, have you came across his writing?

I think Yiquan has built from a number of theories, so you need to sort out which is from which, etc. You mention white crane, is it Fujian Yongchun White Crane?
Last edited by Yeung on Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby AL2016 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:28 am

no i dont know zhao dao xin writing

i dont know i have seen a video of a white crane vietnamese master he looks like dachengchuan
like hooking the arm and explose the power
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby Yeung on Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:29 pm

AL2016 wrote:no i dont know zhao dao xin writing

i dont know i have seen a video of a white crane vietnamese master he looks like dachengchuan
like hooking the arm and explose the power


Zhao Daoxin was a very good fighter and he suggested 5 different encounters to a powerful incoming strike in fighting.

Did you also only watched videos of the subtlety of Taijiquan and Baguaquan?
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby AL2016 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:05 pm

Yes i am not very imply in neijia as i was in 2000 now iam in spiritual path

So i dont read and have a basic and minimal research and train
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby Yeung on Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:41 pm

Good, with your spiritual path please help me to understand the following:

總綱 形意無極學
GENERAL PRINCIPLES

[Section 1a:] NONPOLARITY

無極者。當人未練之先。無思無意。無形無象。無我無他。胸中混混沌沌。一氣渾淪。無所向意者也。世人不知有逆運之理。但斤斤於天地自然順行之道。氣拘物蔽。昏昧不明。以致體質虛弱。陽極必陰。陰極必死。於此攝生之術。槪乎未有諳也。惟聖人。獨能參透逆運之術。攬陰陽。奪造化。轉乾坤。扭氣機。於後天中返先天。復出歸元。保合太和。總不外乎後天五行拳。八卦拳之理。一氣伸縮之道。所謂無極而能生一氣者是也。
Nonpolarity is the state you are in before commencing practice, without thoughts or ideas, without form or shape, without a sense of “me” or “him”. In the mind, all is mixed and without distinction, a continuous vagueness, nothing being thought about. Most people do not understand the theory of reversing conditions, only the way of continuing along with what seems natural to them. Their energy gets constrained and things become hidden, all is confused and unclear, and the body gets to the point that it is weakened. When active reaches its peak, there must be passive, then when passive reaches its peak, there will be death.
Herein lies the art of keeping fit, but generally it is not yet well-known. It is a wise person who can understand the art of reversal, grasping the passive and active aspects to compel Nature to invert Qian and Kun [“Creative” and “Receptive” (When the “Creative” trigram is placed on top of the “Receptive” trigram, they form hexagram 12: “Stagnation”. When they are flipped over so the “Receptive” trigram is placed on top of the “Creative” trigram, they form hexagram 11: “Peace”.)] with the mechanism of turning the energies, thereby reverting from the acquired condition to the innate, returning one to one’s original state, guaranteeing a merging with the “grand harmony”. This is never separate from the principles in the acquired five elements techniques or the eight trigrams techniques, nor the methods of continuous expansion and contraction. And so it is said: “From nonpolarity can arise a singleness of energy.” (Sun Liutang 1915, translated by Paul Bennan)
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby zrm on Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:30 pm

This is my interpretation given what I was taught regarding Taoism from my teacher. It may or may not line up with classical Taoist interpretations.

Here Sun Lu Tung is talking about returning to the dao via the practice of "internal alchemy". The first three movements in taiji have a correspondence with daosist cosmology. First you are standing still and you clear all your thoughts. This corresponds to "wuji"/"non-polarity"/"nothingness". As soon as you move by lifting your hands together you create taiji (yin and yang together), then you hold the ball and the the energy splits first into two and then into many things (liang yi). Finally you create the trinity - heaven man and earth. Life (man) is spontaneously created via the interaction of yin and yang (heaven and earth). Essentially your martial art is more than just your structure and movement.

Essentially the Taoists believe that the soul is part of the Tao. This is the true you - part of you that existed in the dao before you were born (and is thus immortal and timeless), and separated from the Tao as you were first conceived. The creation of life in conception is regarded as creating "something from nothing". This part of you that originally came from the nothing is considered immortal. After interacting with the environment you get caught up with emotions and society and lose your true self. In this regard children are closer to the Tao then adults. Returning to non-polarity means returning to the Tao, removing all your learnt preconceptions and experiences and rediscovering and understanding your true self.

The practice of internal martial arts is one way to achieve this.
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby Yeung on Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:43 pm

zrm wrote:This is my interpretation given what I was taught regarding Taoism from my teacher. It may or may not line up with classical Taoist interpretations.

The practice of internal martial arts is one way to achieve this.


Interesting, this sort of open to a lot of questions. Was you taught that Yin and Yang are two different Qi? As Sun Lutang suggested one energy of continuous expansion and contraction, singleness of energy.

I think workout the Yin Yang relation is important before the congenital and postnatal relation.
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby AL2016 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:50 pm

to answer i follow the sufi path

it s islamic mystical

to sum up you have 7 skys et 7 earth

in the 7th sky the divine throne and billion of angel turning around (angel is creature from light that are in the sky to workship god and have no free will and can go down on earth for different role)

beyond the 7th sky it s divine essence no right no left no up no down no distance no time its not understanble by brain

and in the earth you have the human beeing and the djinn , djinn are created by fire and are spirit that have free will , they can move by supersonic speed (but only in earth the sky is forbidden for them no accessible) because they have no body. there are good jinns and bad jinn this is the devils and the chief is the devil satane

in the jinn there are some muslim christian jew atheist , they have family

the two world djinn and human being are very soon and djinn can influence more or less human beiing especially the devils
and sometime there is a fusion between them and you need exorcism

sometime human beiing can make a pact with the satane and having genius power like being sudenly a genius in musik sport or....martial art

sometime technical to be empty mind and some exoteric ritual can help to stronger and have QI that can be in relation with djinn

moribei ueshiba the aikido foundator was known for having power and speed moving by tegu or djinns
he was able to see some light that give him the power to see all the attack like they are slow... because in the djinns world all human capacity is very low and slow
Last edited by AL2016 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby yeniseri on Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:38 pm

Rumi and Kabir (the weaver) seems to believe that the divine spark has to come from within instead of seeking it outside the self.
Therein appears to lie ;D the problem
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Re: is all neijia same principle?same family?

Postby zrm on Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:32 pm

Yeung wrote:Was you taught that Yin and Yang are two different Qi? As Sun Lutang suggested one energy of continuous expansion and contraction, singleness of energy.


Kind of. To use logic as a metaphor, for something to be true (yang) usually something else must also be false (yin). But there are also two states of paradox - "neither true or false" due to absence of evidence, as in "a tree has fallen in the forest but nobody is there to hear it" and "both true and false" as in "I always tell lies". In this metaphor, "neither true or false" would equate to the concept of wuji and "both true and false at the same time" would equate to taiji. In reality there is no such thing as an absolute truth or an absolute falsehood, things always lie within the spectrum between completely true (yang), completely false (yin), neither (wuji) or both (taiji). Interesting things happen when you approximate a paradox. That is when you get a "singleness of energy".

In internal martial arts you train to be in multiple continuous states of near paradox - being both "hard and soft", "heavy and light" etc etc. This what they are talking about when they refer to masters having "mysterious energy". When you meet somebody who moves like that its very hard to work out what's going on because you can no longer say "if he does this, I do that", because your opponent is "attacking, yet not attacking" at the same time. Their attack only manifests itself when it is opportunistic for it to do so.

Mysterious energy doesn't seem to be something you can ever master completely. It's just something you can get better at approximating over time.
Last edited by zrm on Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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