is all neijia same principle?same family?

[chimerical tortoise]

AL2016: I'm not sure about what to make of your last post but just to be clear, the words "jin" (勁) and "jing" (精) that are fairly common in Chinese martial arts have no relation to the djinn/jinn from Islamic tradition. They are completely different and unrelated words/concepts/languages.

As far as I am aware, there is also a tendency in East Asian traditions to attribute your accomplishments or abilities to a supernatural or mystical figure - a kind of demonstration of humility in a way, but also to justify the existence of the particular art in an environment where there are many different spectacular martial arts, in claiming a special origin. To give a few examples:

- Ving tsun is often attributed to a mythical nun, Ng Mui;
- Xingyiquan is often attributed to Yue Fei, a very popular Chinese folk hero;
- Taijiquan is often attributed to Zhang Sanfeng, a daoist who may or may not have existed.

I think it is important to recognise that the origin stories usually present a series of metaphors or contrasts through which some of the core principles of the martial art can be understood. Whether or not the story actually took place is not as important.

It is also important to separate the origin from the actual transmission of art, by real people, from generation to generation, which is something that can be factually verified.

I hope that this helps.

[Ian]

...and in the earth you have the human beeing and the djinn , djinn are created by fire and are spirit that have free will , they can move by supersonic speed (but only in earth the sky is forbidden for them no accessible) because they have no body. there are good jinns and bad jinn this is the devils and the chief is the devil satane

in the jinn there are some muslim christian jew atheist , they have family

the two world djinn and human being are very soon and djinn can influence more or less human beiing especially the devils
and sometime there is a fusion between them and you need exorcism

sometime human beiing can make a pact with the satane and having genius power like being sudenly a genius in musik sport or....martial art

sometime technical to be empty mind and some exoteric ritual can help to stronger and have QI that can be in relation with djinn

moribei ueshiba the aikido foundator was known for having power and speed moving by tegu or djinns
he was able to see some light that give him the power to see all the attack like they are slow... because in the djinns world all human capacity is very low and slow...

Well that was epic.

Mr. Tortoise - Ng Mui was NOT "mythical". SHE GAVE BIRTH TO YUE FEI AFTER A SEXUAL KUNGFU BATTLE WITH ZHANG SANFENG. Everyone knows this.

[Yeung]

From a martial arts' perspective, maybe it all started with the idea of yin yang as in the Book of Change (Yijing) 易经. One can read about the separation of darkness and light from Genesis, but Yijing seems to start from light and the reflection of light or active and passive. Yin and Yang is a continuum from lesser light to greater light. In a way, Internal Martial Arts are attempts to manipulate strength between the two extreme of very little strength to very powerful strength. It can also be viewed as a binary system from 1 (2^0) to 2^n.

[Spncr]

...and in the earth you have the human beeing and the djinn , djinn are created by fire and are spirit that have free will , they can move by supersonic speed (but only in earth the sky is forbidden for them no accessible) because they have no body. there are good jinns and bad jinn this is the devils and the chief is the devil satane

in the jinn there are some muslim christian jew atheist , they have family

the two world djinn and human being are very soon and djinn can influence more or less human beiing especially the devils
and sometime there is a fusion between them and you need exorcism

sometime human beiing can make a pact with the satane and having genius power like being sudenly a genius in musik sport or....martial art

sometime technical to be empty mind and some exoteric ritual can help to stronger and have QI that can be in relation with djinn

moribei ueshiba the aikido foundator was known for having power and speed moving by tegu or djinns
he was able to see some light that give him the power to see all the attack like they are slow... because in the djinns world all human capacity is very low and slow...

Well that was epic.

Mr. Tortoise - Ng Mui was NOT "mythical". SHE GAVE BIRTH TO YUE FEI AFTER A SEXUAL KUNGFU BATTLE WITH ZHANG SANFENG. Everyone knows this.

Bwahhahaha Ian that actually sounds fairly reasonable as far as MA origin stories go... only need to tie bagua in there somehow and then we'd have "proof" that all neijia is the same/principle family

[Ian]

My favorite foundation myth is still that of baiyuan tongbei.

-Our founder lost a fight, turned into a white ape, and retreated to the forest.
-Er...is that it?
-YES THAT IS IT.

Disappointing ape djinn grants you 'losing fight skills'

[MaartenSFS]

Fuck me... *Triple face palm* Get back to training, people!

Note: Yes, I have three hands..

From what I've seen, all CMA are deeply intertwined and did not evolve in a vacuum. I haven't met a SINGLE master THAT COULD FIGHT that only learned one style and all of them say that the essence is the same and there should be no distinction between Neijiaquan and Waijiaquan.

The problem is that there are so few people that actually train hard enough and fight enough to reach that level in most of these arts and they would rather create cults and live in a fantasy world where they can do moving Yoga and somehow be able to kill everyone with one punch - in their dreams - and when someone shows up that put in the time and energy and lost lots of sweat and blood and can actually use these extremely simple skills and strategies, that totally hold up to scientific scrutiny, all of these cultists gather round like it's some sort of magic and deify them after they are dead. And most of these skilled masters do not discourage this, but encourage it, either profiting from it now or listening to the sagas sung of them in the afterlife.

[chimerical tortoise]

I've met people who have confused djinn and jin in training before. It is a regrettable confusion to say the least.

From what I've seen, all CMA are deeply intertwined and did not evolve in a vacuum. I haven't met a SINGLE master THAT COULD FIGHT that only learned one style and all of them say that the essence is the same and there should be no distinction between Neijiaquan and Waijiaquan.

I have met them, and more than once - I daresay there are enough people on the board who have, too.

But I have since retreated into the forest to turn into a white ape!

[Subitai]

Haha...good on "MaartenSFS" post.

If there was a like button I'd have hit it for him.

[middleway]

From what I've seen, all CMA are deeply intertwined and did not evolve in a vacuum. I haven't met a SINGLE master THAT COULD FIGHT that only learned one style and all of them say that the essence is the same and there should be no distinction between Neijiaquan and Waijiaquan.

The problem is that there are so few people that actually train hard enough and fight enough to reach that level in most of these arts and they would rather create cults and live in a fantasy world where they can do moving Yoga and somehow be able to kill everyone with one punch - in their dreams - and when someone shows up that put in the time and energy and lost lots of sweat and blood and can actually use these extremely simple skills and strategies, that totally hold up to scientific scrutiny, all of these cultists gather round like it's some sort of magic and deify them after they are dead. And most of these skilled masters do not discourage this, but encourage it, either profiting from it now or listening to the sagas sung of them in the afterlife.

Well i gotta say ... that was beautifully put!

Bravo sir!

[zrm]

While I don't disagree with what's been said, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with somebody seeking a philosophical or spiritual insight from their art or hobby if that's what they are into. If that's not your thing, well fine, just ignore it. There will be a time though, where either due to age or injury, you will no longer be able fight competitively and at which point you will end up asking yourself, "why do I still do this?" And if your answer is "because I enjoy it" the next logical question on that list is "why do I enjoy it?". Sure you can just go ahead and totally ignore these kinds of questions and just train instead and that is totally your prerogative.

I personally don't believe in gods, spirits, deities, mythical figures or magical powers but according to the statistics regarding religions I'm part of a pretty small minority so I've learnt not to judge those that do. I do think there is value in understanding the history and context of the what I practice though and there is no point denying that spirituality and philosophy has ever been entwined with the Chinese martial arts, even if it has just been the last 150 years. Personally I believe that most of what is done in internal martial arts can be explained through bio-mechanics and physics, with the left over bits falling into psychology or cognitive science. This hasn't stopped me from gaining insight though. Studying internal martial arts and trying to work out how they work has lead to me learning more about biomechanics, cognitive science, philosophy, and psychology than I ever thought I would, and I believe these are all valid discussions. If you think there is no point in discussing any of this and the answer is to simply just go train instead, then why waste time participating on an internet forum (of all places) in the first place?

If a bunch of people want to go deify some past master and start some new religion let them go and do that. If you train hard and are confident in what you study it shouldn't bother you. If you think it gives your art a bad name, well first, you shouldn't give a shit what people think, and second, its always been a master that makes the art and not the art itself. Hardly anybody knew of Wing Chun before Bruce Lee and hardly anybody knew of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu before the Gracies. You'll be hard pressed to find many people who even know what Xing Yi and Bagua even is outside of China and even then they are usually martial art aficionados. There is little danger of people getting the wrong idea because most people have no idea. If you want your art to get the respect it deserves, simply train and study hard, prove to people around you that what you do has utility, and your will end up making both a name for both yourself and your art.

[MaartenSFS]

Actually, it matters. This hocus pocus bullshit directly affects whether people want to learn CMA or just go to an MMA gym. I'm all for the spiritual, philosophical etc. aspects of the arts, but this is in addition to what they were intended for, not as a replacement. When I eventually return to the West and want to teach what I've learned here I don't want people to say; "Oh, that's just LARPing, if I want to learn how to fight I'll go do MMA." Or, possibly worse, believe that they'll learn killer magic from me and waste my fucking time. These people give all CMA a bad name. Even young Chinese are fed up with it and take up Sanda or a foreign art if they want to learn how to fight. And Taijiquan is for old ladies in the park!

[windwalker]

Actually, it matters. This hocus pocus bullshit directly affects whether people want to learn CMA or just go to an MMA gym. I'm all for the spiritual, philosophical etc. aspects of the arts, but this is in addition to what they were intended for, not as a replacement. When I eventually return to the West and want to teach what I've learned here I don't want people to say; "Oh, that's just LARPing, if I want to learn how to fight I'll go do MMA." Or, possibly worse, believe that they'll learn killer magic from me and waste my fucking time. These people give all CMA a bad name. Even young Chinese are fed up with it and take up Sanda or a foreign art if they want to learn how to fight. And Taijiquan is for old ladies in the park!

I never quite understand this line of thought.
people will find and train what has an interest for them regardless.

CMA, has a lot to do with cultural traditions and history from which its from. This is changing as I'm sure you know and have found.
Some teachers focus more on one aspect then the others...In the west some take advantage of this as a type of marketing....
some do, not all.

Its called marketing,,,,know your market, either fit into an existing one or make your own.

Or, possibly worse, believe that they'll learn killer magic from me and waste my fucking time. These people give all CMA a bad name. Even young Chinese are fed up with it and take up Sanda or a foreign art if they want to learn how to fight. And Taijiquan is for old ladies in the park!

How would they waste your time paying you to learn something that your not teaching....seems like it would be the other way around.

The young Chinese like many young people tend to like new things, most of them understand how demanding CMA can be
and probably feel that the other things achive the goal faster..This will change as CMA teachers adapt their training methods to produce results in a shorter period of time.

"taijiquan is for old ladies in the park",,,young ones too

This too is changing with many teachers adopting methods to produce real skill sets that taiji is noted for at a
faster rate.

wish you luck when you return....would offer this advice.

Just remember its a market, often the packaging counts
for more then whats in the box.

[Subitai]

MaartenSFS wrote: ...And Taijiquan is for old ladies in the park!

...and you often hear people say: "If you want to learn kung fu for fighting, don't go to China"


Ok, now I gotta say something. If you're talking about just giving yourself something to do or keep up your health bla bla bla...Not interesting in fighting. Then I'd agree with what MaartenSFS wrote.

But as some others have alluded to (and I've personally said in the past): My own research and personal experiences in China had led me to believe that anyone who was famous for fighting with Tai Chi also had a strong foundation in basic kung fu...i.e. more akin to hard style training. Whenever I asked if some fighter ONLY had training in ONE style...they would say "No, when this ___ master was younger he did this style or that style". Ultimately, Tai Chi helped them to become better. Either that or they were larger in size as to provide a natural advantage, for example someone like "Yang Chen Fu". I'm not saying he only knew TC...just saying size matters.

Now there are a couple sayings about Tai Chi that get kicked around and have become public domain:

1)"Tai Chi is graduate level work" = It's one of the most modern in development or time-wise, when you compare it to older styles. IMO, meaning you should have a foundation in some other style.

2) "Tai Chi makes what ever style you've learned better, but nothing makes TC better"...only more TC.
= Once again, it gives credence to masters that were supposedly good fighters in TC...but of course, they learned the bulk of their kick a$$ness when they were younger training harder.

=================================
In southern kung fu styles like Hung Gar you hear often this quote similar to this:
"Train FORM ONLY in kung fu and in old age your skill will be useless"

=Not a Tai Chi Saying but still relevant because if you don't build up your body and learn a strong kung fu foundation then you won't be able to apply it effectively.
=================================
In my own personal training and fight experiences I believe these sayings to be true. I used to fight professionally in my 20's but when I judge my skill and understanding currently, compared to how I did back then...there's no comparison. I'm a way better fighter now then I was back then. True it was nice to be younger but I'm not saying I'm old now. I'm in my forties and I'm still very strong (... not as much gas in the tank or course) but TC has elevated my skill for sure. It makes me laugh when people look at how I was in "95 and assume that's my skill now...just like MMA as elevated over time so have I, because I've never stopped training.

IMO, Tai Chi has given me the edge or that little extra something, that when I spar or fight people say: "You're doing something different, it works but it's annoying effective". But without having done the work for themselves, they'll never figure it out.

[Bao]

Good post Subitai.

I have a whole lot of thoughts about this. Maybe some more later.

[johnwang]

I'm a way better fighter now then I was back then.

If you have already developed your "basic tools" such as:

- jab, cross, uppercut, hook, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, back kick, ...
- hip throw, single leg, double legs, foot sweep, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, ...
- side mount, full mount, choke, arm bar, ...

To use "internal" training to "enhance" your tools can be a valid path. But if you just jump right into "internal" training and skip your "basic tools development", you will end with nothing.

I have asked many "internal" guys, "Which move (tool) will you use to kill your opponent if you have to?" I usually won't get any respond.