The psychology behind student resistance and challenges

[jonathan.bluestein]

This is a new article I have just published, discussing the challenges of newcomers to adapt to the requirements of traditional martial arts training, and psychological issues lurking behind these problems.

http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/2016/07/to-study-martial-arts-by-walking-middle.html

[daniel pfister]

Nicely written article as usually, Jonathan.

I tend to think, however, that the onus should be put on we the instructors rather than students. So called traditional instructional methods and terminology can be a huge hindrance to learning IMA, and adherence to traditions can lead one to reject or ignore modern and more extensively researched teaching methodologies. We should be helping people learn to solve "movement problems" in IMA, not fostering mimicry. Unless mere mimicry is your goal for specific forms competition, adaptation to a constantly changing opponent should be the true goal of any MA. Learning adaptation comes from a thinking mind, not unquestioning acceptance. Personally, I don't mind when students try to argue with me. I've spent enough time training and teaching to have already thought about the questions they might have. And I'm over-joyed (for the most part) on the rare occasion when someone asks me about something I haven't thought to ask myself. I strongly encourage my students to challenge me, and make me justify the movements I teach. I think that make me a better teacher and practitioner. -2 Cents

[johnwang]

When I was 14 years old, the 1st day that I jointed in my senior high school long fist class, I asked my long fist teacher, "What will you do if I punched to your face?" He asked me to punch him, I did, he blocked my punch, pulled my arm, used his leading leg to block my leading leg, and took me down.''' I just wanted to make sure that I could learn fighting from him and not just health and performance.

That was 55 years ago and he is 90 years old now.

http://ymaa.com/articles/grandmaster-li-mao-ching

[jonathan.bluestein]

Nice story sifu Wang!


Daniel,

Of course, more responsibility should be on the teacher. However, I find that as long as students still attempt to argue, they cannot fully learn. I have made it a rule for myself to try and argue as little as possible with my own teachers. I may ask questions but I will not argue with their answers or conclusions.

I have gone to great lengths to help my students understand the traditional teachings better. On the walls on my school are hung lists of the full curriculum of each art in great details. I have written a 250 page book about the arts in Hebrew and published it for free on our website for them and others to read (not the same book as Research of Martial Arts). They are forced to read from that book. Among those who haven't read about the arts in either that book or from other sources, I will choose one individual each class and that person will wash everyone else's cups. Message is clear - no reading makes you end up as a dishwasher (always lots of cups to wash since we drink green tea all the time). I also send them videos and articles over facebook regularly. Once or twice a week I will record a long message about morals or Chinese culture and send it via Whatsapp. I also sometimes lecture them for 10-40 minutes after class is over. Every class ends with a bow, but before that I will point at each of them one after the other, call that person's name and ask: "any questions?". Only yesterday I sat and wrote for 5 hours late at night to be able to produce a new Hebrew article for my students, about the caravan escort services at the end of the Qing dynasty...

[phil b]

Daniel,

Of course, more responsibility should be on the teacher. However, I find that as long as students still attempt to argue, they cannot fully learn. I have made it a rule for myself to try and argue as little as possible with my own teachers. I may ask questions but I will not argue with their answers or conclusions.

I have gone to great lengths to help my students understand the traditional teachings better. On the walls on my school are hung lists of the full curriculum of each art in great details. I have written a 250 page book about the arts in Hebrew and published it for free on our website for them and others to read (not the same book as Research of Martial Arts). They are forced to read from that book. Among those who haven't read about the arts in either that book or from other sources, I will choose one individual each class and that person will wash everyone else's cups. Message is clear - no reading makes you end up as a dishwasher (always lots of cups to wash since we drink green tea all the time). I also send them videos and articles over facebook regularly. Once or twice a week I will record a long message about morals or Chinese culture and send it via Whatsapp. I also sometimes lecture them for 10-40 minutes after class is over. Every class ends with a bow, but before that I will point at each of them one after the other, call that person's name and ask: "any questions?". Only yesterday I sat and wrote for 5 hours late at night to be able to produce a new Hebrew article for my students, about the caravan escort services at the end of the Qing dynasty...

Your classes sound awful. You may be zealous, but forcing your students to read your writing, bombarding them with Facebook and whatsapp… you need a reality check. Perhaps you should get out more.

[Bao]

They are forced to read from that book. Among those who haven't read about the arts in either that book or from other sources, I will choose one individual each class and that person will wash everyone else's cups. Message is clear - no reading makes you end up as a dishwasher (always lots of cups to wash since we drink green tea all the time).

Your classes sound awful. You may be zealous, but forcing your students to read your writing, bombarding them with Facebook and whatsapp… you need a reality check. Perhaps you should get out more.

+1.

Sounds like a sect driven by an egomaniac trying to force his own truth onto people. Jonathan is clearly all too young to have any authority on what is the truth of IMA. It all sounds ridiculous. If you act like a master you need to be able to live up to that kind of reputation. Reality check needed for sure. Indeed so.

An old Chinese IMA teacher, the one I respect the most said: "A teacher is there for the students, it's never the opposite around. You must always remember that as a teacher." He would've laughed.

[jonathan.bluestein]

To each his own.

Terribly sorry to see that there are people here who would not have liked their teacher to make an effort to come up with better explanations for what they are studying, or translate things to their native language so they would have an easier time reading them. A third of this book of mine which I mentioned, by the way, is made up of translations of other people's articles. It also includes biographies of prominent Chinese teachers (including my own), translations and explanations of chapters from the Analects and the Dao De Jing, a complete translation of all of the Xing Yi Classics put together in a single article, a piece on the origins of Chinese martial arts, a 25+ page telling of the Manchu conquest of China and its effects on the martial arts, a thorough explanation of the difference between 'Li' and 'Jin' in Chinese language and culture and in martial arts practice, and a myriad of other such 'useless' things which people really ought not to be reading...

I do not seem to recall another teacher who have written a 250 page book solely for their own students and published it for free. 250 is just the current page count, by the way. Took me a little over a year to get there. It will likely pass the 1000 page mark in a few years. You take this to be a bad thing? I call it dedication. You deem me "overzealous"? I prefer to think of myself as devote. All of the people here who do traditional Chinese martial arts would have loved their teachers to write entire books just to elucidate the learning for them. But when a young Israeli guy does it, suddenly he is an 'egomaniac'? Ha! What would you not have given to have such books written by all the teachers of the past... Unfortunately, too few of them made such an effort.

I have made up my mind when I opened my school, and continually tell this to my students, that I would not come to terms with a scenario in which my students are ignorant. Thus, they are forced to read. I mean, not really forced. This is not a requirement for learning more material (at least for non-disciples, and I only have one disciple). You simply get to wash dishes if you don't. So they all start reading early on. As I have explained in my previous post (something which was ignored), it does not necessarily have to be my book - could be anything related to the arts. I have a large library of martial arts books placed at my academy with a few dozen books for them to take home if they wish, or they could read something else. I do not care as long as they educate themselves.

What else I explain to them is that I as a teacher cannot possibly teach them 100% of what I know. 80-90% at best, if they stick with me for many years. But most will get less. Then how can they fill in the gaps? They should:

1. Read a lot and broadly.

2. Watch many different things on video.

3. Visit other schools.

4. Go study under additional teachers after they have spent an X amount of time with me (several years, depends on the student and his/her progression of course).

5. Investigate what was taught in class on their own.

On the cover of my book there is a quote which embodies this:

"Skill is acquired through continuous practice. Sophistication and depth are achieved by giving thought to it".

This is the legacy handed over to me by my teachers. This is what my teachings are about. For me it is unfathomable that the only thing my students will know of the arts is what they hear and do in class. This is why I always refer to my school as an 'Academy' when advertising locally or with the students. Because they are not there to solely come, do some movements, then go home. They attend the place to become better versions of themselves. I challenge people out of their comfort zones - physical and mental alike. Those who do not like it, leave.

As you fellows seem to be experts on how to run a school with more proper standards, I suggest you do better than I in this respect.

[phil b]

Your defensive response speaks volumes. So you wrote a book, so what? You've thoroughly explained Li and Jin huh? You clearly don't understand the level of arrogance in your own posts.
Watch the interview of Paul Whitrod Sifu. His late grandmaster, a noted and respected grandmaster said students were given answers when they asked the right questions. The good teachers I have met or trained with have never tried to force their opinion on students.
As for me being an expert on how to run a school, I don't teach.

If you believe that force feeding students is somehow the correct way to teach that is your business. That others think it is a gross misrepresentation of what genuine teachers do is the opinion of others. Perhaps in one of your volumes you can find the wisdom to accept that.

[johnwang]

they are forced to ...

If any of my student does not want to compete in tournament, I won't teach him. One of my student's student had trained for his tournament, During the tournament time, he was afraid and did not get into the ring. No matter how nice his technique may look during his black belt test, he didn't pass his black belt test because he broke his promise - compete in tournament.

IMO, you have to force your students to do something, otherwise there won't be any "quality control".

[Bao]

Your defensive response speaks volumes.

+1
I have nothing further to add.

No matter how nice his technique may look during his black belt test, he didn't pass his black belt test because he broke his promise - compete in tournament.

IMO, you have to force your students to do something, otherwise there won't be any "quality control".

Breaking a promise is one thing - you invested time in him. He wasted your time.

But forcing is another thing. The best teachers I have met have never forced or pushed his students in any manner. Also, they had a great sense of humor and didn't take themselves too seriously.

If students can't keep up with the practice or don't like it, they will leave. When I had a group before I got too busy, I focused all the practice on martial application and jibengong. I am not an excellent teacher, maybe quite far from that. But the people who stayed were exactly the ones I wanted to stay, i.e. the people who liked my way of teaching. If you or Jonathan get the people you want to stay to actually stay, then fine for you. But I do believe that with the style Jonathan has, he will lose all of the best students, i.e. any kind of intelligent people. Intelligent people usually appreciate self distance and don't like where there is no sense of humor. But if building a sect with utterly stupid non thinking students who can worship him as a master is his main goal, I think he will do an absolutely brilliant job. No doubt about that.

[chimerical tortoise]

deleted

[Ian]

Sifu Bluestein,

Is it ok if I drink coffee instead of green tea?

Also can I opt out of the Morality Whatsapp Group, or is that the price of admission?

[mrtoes]

Yeah - I agree with little in your article. If you need me to read a book in order and absorb a constant assault of social media spam to understand your teachings then I don't think you have a very efficient method.

I particularly dislike this idea that "teacher always knows best" and learning to "accept" teachings. I think it is very inefficient and just leads to blind subservience and is at the heard of much that is wrong about traditional arts. I believe in "understanding by doing".

I get "getting yourself out of the way" which is also a theme in your article, but what you're missing is that should apply at least as much to the teacher as the student and this all sounds a bit "me me me" and a little self indulgent.

No disrespect intended.

Matthew

[Ron Panunto]

T.T.Liang said (about learning Taiji): "If you only have a teacher, better not have teacher; if you only read books, better not have books." In translation, you should study under a teacher AND read books. This is the way I've always done it, although I have students who have absolutely no desire to read about Taiji, but that's their loss.

[windwalker]

In light of some the current postings and Ron's post. I have a different take on this one that follows Buddhist thought.

I have heard the phrase “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!” many times. Can you explain this?

Answer:

It actually comes from an old koan attributed to Zen Master Linji, (the founder of the Rinzai sect). It’s a simple one:

“If you meet the Buddha, kill him.”– Linji

I’m sure you already realize that it’s not being literal. The road, the killing, and even the Buddha are symbolic.

The road is generally taken to mean the path to Enlightenment; that might be through meditation, study, prayer, or just some aspect of your way of life. Your life is your road. That’s fairly straightforward as far as metaphors go.

But how do you meet the Buddha on this “road?” Imagine meeting some symbolic Buddha. Would he be a great teacher that you might actually meet and follow in the real world? Could that Buddha be you yourself, having reached Enlightenment? Or maybe you have some idealized image of perfection that equates to your concept of the Buddha or Enlightenment.

Whatever your conception is of the Buddha, it’s WRONG! Now kill that image and keep practicing. This all has to do with the idea that reality is an impermanent illusion. If you believe that you have a correct image of what it means to be Enlightened, then you need to throw out (kill) that image and keep meditating.

Most people have heard the first chapter of the Tao, “The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao.” (So if you think you see the real Tao, kill it and move on).

http://www.dailybuddhism.com/archives/670