The psychology behind student resistance and challenges

[jonathan.bluestein]

I have no intention to further argue or wish to try and justify my teachings. My previous comments were clarifications, but the information so far presented is consistently being twisted and taken to extremes in order to provoke and raise a heated discussion, in which I am not willing to take part. My apologies to those of you who dedicated much time in analyzing everything, writing down their opinions. I am normally eager to discuss matters at length when they relate to the arts, but not this time. Suffice to say, time will tell who managed to get his knowledge across to students and the community. In that respect, our success will be mutually enriching. Good day

[willie]

I have no intention to further argue or wish to try and justify my teachings. My previous comments were clarifications, but the information so far presented is consistently being twisted and taken to extremes in order to provoke and raise a heated discussion, in which I am not willing to take part. My apologies to those of you who dedicated much time in analyzing everything, writing down their opinions. I am normally eager to discuss matters at length when they relate to the arts, but not this time. Suffice to say, time will tell who managed to get his knowledge across to students and the community. In that respect, our success will be mutually enriching. Good day

Jonathon, you want to write a book, I think it's great.
Of-coarse you will find bitterness and jealousy. Just go along your path and do it.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Thank you Willie. I appreciate your comment.

I have actually written three books already.

The first is Research of Martial Arts.

The second is an instructional manual for my Southern Mantis sifu's self-defense course for everyday women who do not practice the martial arts. The book is called 'Spikey: Your Edge in Self-Defense' (94 pages). It is a fully illustrated guide to be used by certified instructors to teach this 9-class long course. My sifu needed someone to put it into writing, arrange the curriculum on paper, take the appropriate images for the various drills and techniques, etc. Together we collaborated to produce this. This self-defense program or its teaching could not of course be learned from the manual itself. It is chiefly intended for reference for those already teaching the program, partly to guarantee standards are maintained. It should be noted that this program is more akin to Krav Maga is attitude and spirit and is not strictly related to Southern Mantis.

The third book I have written is the one mentioned prior in this discussion, and is called 'The Analects of Tianjin' (currently 245 pages). Name inspired of course by the Confucian Analects, and the city of Tianjin (my school is called 'Tianjin Academy'). This book is an ongoing project which I keep updating. People here have misunderstood completely what it is about.

In my native country of Israel, one could count with 10 fingers the number of serious books written in Hebrew about the martial arts. Of these, currently none deal with traditional Chinese martial arts with anything beyond storytelling. Mine is, sadly, the only book of its kind. Israelis are usually conversational in English, but most find it difficult reading lengthy texts in foreign languages, especially when such texts deal with specialized fields of knowledge. Thus, for my students and the general martial arts community in my country, this book is a window to a world which many of them would otherwise get a very narrow exposure to. This type of situation can barely be comprehended to people coming from English or Chinese speaking countries, for whom there had already been amassed an incredible breadth of literature on just about any subject of interest imaginable. Not so for a nation of 8 million people with a language only recently revived. Over here in Israel, quite a lot of literature and knowledge is not truly accessible if one is not highly fluent in a widely spoken foreign language. Also, much of the translation done prior to Chinese classics like the Dao De Jing, The Analects, Zhuang Zi, etc is just horrible by all accounts.

After having published Research of Martial Arts, I thought that was already quite a lot of information I had put out there, and that those interested and future students could simply make their own way through the piles of literature available along the martial journey they were undertaking. I was wrong. A lot of my students found it difficult to read my English articles and my book (which, again, they were never forced to read). They wanted me to translate things for them. Having sold very few copies of my first book in Israel (but many abroad), questioning the locals about it, the most common answer I had received was that they just could not handle the English, and needed materials in Hebrew. For over a year I kept receiving requests to write in my native language. So I did it. I started publishing a lot of articles in Hebrew on my academy's website, most of them written on subjects not directly discussed in Research of Martial Arts. After the articles had accumulated to a few dozen, I put them into a single file and made a book of them. Yet because so many people were interested in this, and I wanted all of my students to have access, I kept this book free for all.

For those interested, here is the direct link for it:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o4n2okuhswyb2 ... .docx?dl=0

On the upper right side, click on the three dots for the download option. Better to view on a computer and not a cell-phone.

[chimerical tortoise]

deleted

[Bao]

T.T.Liang said (about learning Taiji): "If you only have a teacher, better not have teacher; if you only read books, better not have books." In translation, you should study under a teacher AND read books. This is the way I've always done it, although I have students who have absolutely no desire to read about Taiji, but that's their loss.

No, what that means is that you should study and listen to what other says, but that you should always think and judge for yourself. A teacher with that attitude as Liang is very much the opposite to a sect leader that wants his word be the absolute truth.

Of-coarse you will find bitterness and jealousy. Just go along your path and do it.

Lol! You're a funny guy. That would be like being jealous of a child.

[willie]

T.T.Liang said (about learning Taiji): "If you only have a teacher, better not have teacher; if you only read books, better not have books." In translation, you should study under a teacher AND read books. This is the way I've always done it, although I have students who have absolutely no desire to read about Taiji, but that's their loss.

No, what that means is that you should study and listen to what other says, but that you should always think and judge for yourself. A teacher with that attitude as Liang is very much the opposite to a sect leader that wants his word be the absolute truth.

Of-coarse you will find bitterness and jealousy. Just go along your path and do it.

Lol! You're a funny guy. That would be like being jealous of a child.

ha, ha, you don't know that for sure do you?
I been watching the video's he likes or posts or of his teachers. they are quite good from what I've seen.
I remember, I believe, bobby fisher saying that the most dangerous opponent that he has ever met was a young kid.
there is something to be said about the mind set, and child like ambition.

[Bao]

I been watching the video's he likes or posts or of his teachers. they are quite good from what I've seen.

So, because of that, he must be a great master. Ok, thanks for explaining your sense of logic.

there is something to be said about the mind set, and child like ambition.

What I meant has nothing to do with things like having enthusiasm or child like ambition.
I sincerely respect the kind of enthusiasm that J has, as well as ambition and tenacity. I just think he lacks the experience to act like a master. That lack of experience shine through in the writings as well.

[willie]

I been watching the video's he likes or posts or of his teachers. they are quite good from what I've seen.

So, because of that, he must be a great master. Ok, thanks for explaining your sense of logic. .

I don't like titles.

[Ron Panunto]

T.T.Liang said (about learning Taiji): "If you only have a teacher, better not have teacher; if you only read books, better not have books." In translation, you should study under a teacher AND read books. This is the way I've always done it, although I have students who have absolutely no desire to read about Taiji, but that's their loss.

No, what that means is that you should study and listen to what other says, but that you should always think and judge for yourself. A teacher with that attitude as Liang is very much the opposite to a sect leader that wants his word be the absolute truth.

I agree Bao. I think we are saying the same thing.

[daniel pfister]

I have gone to great lengths to help my students understand the traditional teachings better
....
call that person's name and ask: "any questions?".

It seems very common in lecture type classes that when the instructor asks "any questions?" few, if any, ask questions. If you're lecturing yourstudents about martial art history and traditions, having them learn names, dates, stories etc, and this is what you want them to get out of your class. I'm sure you're method is fine. To me, however, teaching martial arts means teaching adaptation, and cultivating actively thinking and intuitively moving students. This skill doesn't come from historical knowledge, no matter how interesting those things may be. This is also a general knock against the so-called "traditional" teacher who teaches only styles that have methods that aren't adaptable or justifiable. Again, if a student argues with me, and I don't have an answer for their criticism, that's my fault AND it is also a great opportunity for my personal growth as a teacher. It is the same if a student is able to off-balance me in push hands or strike me while sparring. If that ever happens, I say "great job!"

None of this is to say that I don't appreciate your great scholarship in the field. I do.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Thank you Daniel.

Please do not assume my students do not ask questions at the end of class... They do. It is rare that not a single student asks a question or two. The reason for me saying "any questions?" is that during class people are busy practicing so they do not have time to ask everything they wanted. Further, because I have to divide my attention between several individuals. There are also times when in the middle of class I would be asked a question beginning a thorough explanation, but cannot stop the entire class to answer it, so I tell that student who is asking to keep it for later. Then at the end of class I provide for another opportunity for them to ask questions, and they take it. Several of my students actually thank me for reminding them of that. This is why I do not ask them "any questions?" as a group. Rather, I point at each one of them separately and ask this of them one by one. Sometimes if no one asks a question, I would scold them for not asking and try to remind them what we worked on today, to refresh their memory and help them come up with questions. This also yields good results.

The lecture time is not part of class time. It is extra. My classes last 1.5 - 2 hours. After the class is finished, I often give a lecture of some sort. Might be 3 minutes, rarely it went over an hour. People who need to go for their personal business can leave. Most choose to stay if they can. Their skills they learn and work on prior. Their mind needs to work, also. As Israelis they were not born in China and their exposure to the culture which laid the foundations for our arts is minimal at best. Some of them do not even know what Mandarin Chinese sounds like prior to their first class. There are no Chinatowns in Israel, Chinese cuisine is new, and most of the Chinese you see around are construction workers. Nearly none of them have ever spoken with a Chinese person, and few have seen Chinese films (Bruce Lee doesn't count). Their familiarity with China is low by even American standards. As a teacher of the traditional Chinese martial arts it is my duty to have those people familiarized with the culture which spawned these arts in order that they can fully understand them. It is easy enough to proclaim that in China, historically, even the illiterate sometimes mastered the arts. But people tend to forget that in their personal lives, daily activities and through their language and culture they already embodied much of what these arts were about. That is, quite unlike Israeli people, who are both illiterate in the language AND not at all knowledgeable of the culture or the people involved (my Mandarin Chinese ain't too bright either, but at least I work at the rest).

What of the "names, dates and stories", then? They tell a tale of a people across the globe, the way they lived, how they thought, what they were about. It provides exposure for the (relatively) ignorant to a world which they have never encountered before. Am I to believe that my students are to reach for this information and learn it all on their own? Leaving it to chance or mere encouragement, perhaps 1 out of 10, at best, would have done his or her research well. Of these few, how many years would they have to spend like I did, reading countless books and articles, asking and searching everywhere for the hard to find answers? Being that I care deeply for my students, I wanted to save them the trouble and show them the right path. They still have to do the hard work themselves - train at class, train more at home, read, observe, think, analyze, etc. But at least they have a head-start now - they can begin 100 paces ahead of where I did. This embodies progress and evolution. This demonstrates my wish that my students could become better than I. Much akin to the way a parent wishes to have their children start of from a superior place in society, so do I want to help my student to begin their journey from a clearer path in the world of martial arts.

As for argumentative students - I fail to understand the point. I learn from my students and they help point out to me things for improvement in my teachings through their positive feedback. But arguing merely lowers one's position as a teacher on one hand, and prevents the student from learning on the other. A student who argues with his teachers cannot learn deeply from them. That is a bitter truth I have myself learned, based on my argumentative and challenging nature. I have therefore long ceased to argue with my teachers, and also make an effort to argue less with other people in general. I have done this with matters not relating to the arts, too. As my teachers are also good friends of mine, we discuss many things from daily life. I disagree with them a whole lot on a great deal of things. I do however attempt my best to not argue with them, at all. Because arguing with your teacher is just a bad idea. Anyone you build resistance against, you will find it difficult to learn from - and I want to keep learning from my teachers.

That being said, I do not forbid people to challenge me in class. Physical challenges are extremely rare, often characteristic of a person on their first class if ever, and are met with appropriate force or technique. Verbal challenges are always free for issuing. The most common type of argument for instance is: "...but I still cannot see how this can work! I want to do it a different way", uttered by novice student executing some movement with bad posture and not the way they were told to. I will then patiently explain once or twice more at length how it can work or what can be done, providing a hands on experience always. Meeting with additional resistance still, my most common reply is: "Well, if you still wish to do it that way ("his way"), perhaps you know better than I how it ought to be done! Try it some more and see how that works out. ". Then I go help another student instead and come back to him later with renewed patience. Explaining yes, arguing - no.

As a final note - will all due sincerity I strongly believe that you cannot truly teach traditional Chinese martial arts in depth (that includes the culture) to people who have never been familiarized with the basics of Chinese thought, history and philosophy. At least a little bit... Those who expect their veteran students to demonstrate 'Confucian morals' in their teacher-student relationship or with regard to their school/organization, when their student have never read or were told of the Analects, are fooling themselves. Culture does not simply envelop people's hearts and minds. It is taught - and I am a teacher.

[phil b]

I said it before and I will say it again, awful. You are setting yourself up as some kind of authoritative figure. Your justifications regarding Israeli ignorance don't hold water and your constant references to your book are just you using RSF as your own Amazon review.

[Bao]

Good Jonathan, you can act like a gent in the midst of fire.

That you run away from the questions could either seem like you just let it go, a good trait. Or it could be interpreted as a bit cowardly.

Anyway you seem to not understand the critique. Kung Fu, and IMA I'm particular, is about understanding yourself, be willing to change. If you are not willing to approach criticism, how can you develop as a person? You write well and say many good things in your last post, but your actions right here speaks another language.

[Dmitri]

Teaching -- on its own, as something one "does" -- is a silly and rather pointless and self-important endeavor. It is only relevant in the context of whether, and how well, the people you're trying to teach are learning.

And learning is a voluntary activity. Sure you can literally beat knowledge into someone, but I wouldn't call that "learning" or "teaching" -- more like "conditioning".

If someone isn't interested in learning, they will never learn the subject, no matter how incessantly they might be "taught". They must want to get to the top of that mountain; they must walk up there by themselves. The role of a good teacher, IMHO, is simply to guide them along their path, show them a better/easier shortcuts, help them over obstacles, etc. But if they don't want to walk up that mountain, then all your dragging them up there, or even carrying them to the top, is a complete waste of everyone's time and effort, because -- well, they weren't interested in being there in the first place.

Jonathan, it seems like your approach might be a bit unbalanced, leaning towards "teaching", or "making them learn", or perhaps even "conditioning" -- instead of accepting the very complex and different ways different people learn, and perhaps just leaving those who aren't as interested be. Let them eventually realize they don't really want to be there, and quit, -- instead of dragging them along.

There are some very good research-based books about those differences and intricacies of personal learning. Perhaps your dedication and the countless hours spent on some of the aspects of your "teaching" would be better invested in your learning about more efficient ways for them to learn?

Just my ,02 shekels, FWIW

[jonathan.bluestein]

Dmitri,

I am not foreign to different learning styles. In my house I have over 10 books on Jungian Personality Psychology, which is a research field of mine which begs another book some years from now. My approach is balanced towards the society I live in, where most go through mandatory service and are used to being told what to do. I began teaching with an approach far less demanding, but it did not work. It was only when I began making demands of people and putting on more limitations and restrictions that my teachings began to flourish. Israelis are an unruly breed and require harsher methods for their own good. In this respect they are quite the opposite in learning to the Chinese. The Israeli will always improvise and attempt to outsmart the teachings, in the process creating novel things but often missing the point. The Chinese would have traditionally shown strong obedience and respect, but be more inclined to be less original and find it difficult to think out the box. Two extremes, these people are. Part of my teaching is meant to balance this. By the time people get close to become disciples (see explanation below), they no longer feature these typical annoying Israeli tendencies within the confines of the academy, and can balance their urge to be creative and original with obedience and respect. There are exceptions to the rule though, and I have a few students which came to me already featuring the correct mindset for learning. These types of people are not common here. More often than not, someone comes to their first class and attempts to tell me what they want to learn, how, to what purpose, requests a discount, asks for specials, and wonders whether it would be possible to learn something extra at the same time and only come once a week, tells you his entire family and martial arts history in the process, and wonders out loud how many fights you have been to and whether being a martial arts teacher is profitable. Such are Israelis, and the cure comes in the form of setting limits for them.

If you are not willing to approach criticism, how can you develop as a person?

Uh, give me a break. I grew up with two Jewish lawyers. I got the meaning of that sentence the day I was born Your criticism is valid from your point of view and I can certainly understand where you are coming from. This is partly why I have attempted to make things clearer in this discussion. I have however chosen to ignore the parts which were more inclined as personal attacks against my teachings which cannot be tackled when someone does not understand where I come from and without a proper meeting.

Kung Fu, and IMA I'm particular, is about understanding yourself, be willing to change. If you are not willing to approach criticism, how can you develop as a person?

Quoting from a recent minor addition to the second edition of my book, Research of Martial Arts:


(pardon the seemingly vague terminology of 'progress through balance' and 'Spirit Equilibrium', which have to do with earlier explanations in the same chapter)

"......... The more I train in the martial arts and teach them, the more I see that the number 1 obstacle to progress through balance for everyone is their willingness to change. People who want to change and welcome change are far easier to teach than those who do not. I have seen major progress made by people within a single month, sometimes more progress than they have made in a year, just because they welcomed a certain physical or mental reality which they had rejected before. Once you want to be the art and accept its dominion over you, great things are possible. In this we see that the true process of Spirit Equilibrium can only manifest when the soul yearns to change. Therefore, heed the wise words of Mahatma Gandhi: “Be the change you want to see in the world”. .........."

Seems we are not much at odds with our mode of thought after all, are not we? What you have written concerning change, is exactly what my article was about - the reasons behind what makes it difficult for many beginning students to change. I have, as explained prior, written this based on my own bitter experience as a student and teacher, from which I have learned.

It appears that because my personal method of teaching is unorthodox, you are mistakenly assuming that we are further apart in our beliefs and approach than we are in reality. Reexamining my explanations from the previous page you may realize upon second and less heated reading that as a teacher I am quite open and not as totalitarian as I have been claimed me to be.

I have in fact changed quite a lot over the years and continue to do so, in my teachings and practice as well. It is this change in approach which I present here exactly, that is under fire by some.

What I seek as a teacher is to unable as many students as possible to reach the learning stage where they could begin to experience with me what the Japanese call Isshin Denshin, and the Chinese refer to as Kǒuchuán xīn shòu (口传心授) - a 'heart-to-heart transmission' or 'a learning which goes directly from the teacher's mouth into the student's heart'.
To set up such a deep relationship is required of course, first and foremost, a personal connection. Such a thing is different between each of the students and I have not addressed this topic in my article or on this thread. But a prerequisite for making it work is that the people involved are to find common grounds. It is similar to a romantic relationship in that sense. Yes, you can love someone and have a physical connection to them very early on. But a stronger bond beyond the initial infatuation is only established once the people involved begin to construct a shared shared. That is, they have common grounds and experience and learn to understand each other in a manner which transcends the casual.
I do not need or wish my students to fall in love with me, but with the art. Apart from the actual practice, in order for it to happen therefore they need to be able to make of the art more than the obvious. This is achieved by personal research - physical and intellectual alike. By probing into the mind, heart and history of their art and the related culture and language, the students uncover its soul. It ceases to be a mistress whose bodily contours are its most prominent features, and becomes a whole and complete entity, which can be considered as a holistic mode for them to interpret their world. It is then, and only then, that they can connect with me on that deeper level - when common grounds are to a degree established. It is by that time frame, roughly, that they become physically, mentally and psychologically attuned enough to become tudi.
Though my teachings for regular students and disciples is quite similar apart from the personal relationship and my dedication to teach them more, it is as they say in many schools of Karate with regard to the Shodan rank - learning only truly begins for my students when they achieve that disciple status. Not because of the ceremony or anything like that. The latter is merely a social construct. But because by that time, they have reached the point in their learning when they are open enough for me to really teach them. Also, by that time I have come to know them well enough to be able to augment my teaching for them in a more appropriate fashion. Though this is not a black and white switch that makes such things happen - what has been described is a process, which sees improvement from day one. Therefore differ from some other teachers in my accepting of disciples, in that I judge the appropriate time not solely based on an amount spent learning, but more so on the stage of one's learning in terms of their willingness to change.

One might ask how this is achieved in terms of 'measuring'. I have made the process quite simple for me as a teacher. Both the arts I teach (Xing Yi Quan and Pigua Zhang) I have segmented into 12 stages of learning, each. No sashes, belts or hierarchy - the stages are simply for the students to know where they stand. I do test for each stage just to keep check of what they know, and the student only gets to learn more once passing stage X. Each stage naturally takes longer to complete than the former. Stage 10 out of 12 marks when the student can teach. Stage 12 means the student has learned the full curriculum of the art as I know and teach it. All 12 stages were printed and put on the academy's wall for everyone to see. They are also available for them to download online. All the curriculum is detailed therein, in short of course. In the two arts, passing stages 5 (XYQ) or 6 (Pigua) correlate with being able to be accepted as a disciple. Why?
My instruction is very traditional. It would take a person at least 2 years to pass said stages, even if training every day. Two years is enough time for me to get to know these people well (Israeli society is more open than others. People can tell you their income, complete romantic history and of their son who died in the war all in your first ever conversation - no exaggeration there!). Though, most will take over 2 years to get there. In terms of the curriculum too, reaching these stages means that the student has put forth a very considerable effort to get there and is worthy of the status. More so, him being able to learn all that means he is open enough to the art and to me and is thus at the right stage. The bodily changes alone to have taken part by then indicate his mind has expanded. For comparison, by the end of their first year, most of my students have only passed stage 2. My first (and currently only) disciple passed stage 5 (XYQ) after two years of mostly daily training. There are 3 other people who will reach this place within roughly 2-3 months.
Partly so the student know what to expect, one of my articles in Hebrew contained in The Analects of Tianjin explains at length (several pages) the whole tudi-shifu relationship, how it goes in our school, and what is common in other schools too.