The psychology behind student resistance and challenges

[Bao]

Ok Jonathan, thank you for replying and explaining. Interesting answer.... I will read it again when I have more time and think more about it.

Maybe my lack of understanding your approach is due to that you seem to be in a branding mode when you write on this board. Nothing wrong with that. I understand this kind of business mode.

Sorry if I come off as offensive. Sometimes I write fast without doing enough thinking, this is one of my mistakes. Even if I don't agree with certain things, I should show more respect and consideration. Our worlds are different.

[daniel pfister]

Those who expect their veteran students to demonstrate 'Confucian morals' in their teacher-student relationship or with regard to their school/organization, when their student have never read or were told of the Analects, are fooling themselves. Culture does not simply envelop people's hearts and minds. It is taught.

This is, I suppose, the heart of our difference. I read the Analects in Chinese long ago, but don't expect or want demonstrations of Confucian ethics. I don't think culture is taught or decreed; it's something that evolves from ones practice of the art but is still never perfectly defined. You're a Confucian, I'm not. Good luck with that!

This makes me think of the time the Aikido group that practices before me left their sign up on the wall about their "dojo etiquette" which said things like respect, kindness, patience, etc.

I joked with my students that I have no such ethics. Just simply, "train hard, go home."

[Taste of Death]

Those who expect their veteran students to demonstrate 'Confucian morals' in their teacher-student relationship or with regard to their school/organization, when their student have never read or were told of the Analects, are fooling themselves. Culture does not simply envelop people's hearts and minds. It is taught.

This is, I suppose, the heart of our difference. I read the Analects in Chinese long ago, but don't expect or want demonstrations of Confucian ethics. I don't think culture is taught or decreed; it's something that evolves from ones practice of the art, but is still nevver perfectly defined. You're a Confucian, I'm not. Good luck with that!

This makes me think of the time the Aikido group that practices before me left their sign up on the wall about their "dojo etiquette" which said things like respect, kindness, patience, etc.

I joked with my students that I have no such ethics. Just simply, "train hard, go home."

+1

[mrtoes]

I like it! "Train hard" was the motto of one of my teachers.

What I aspire to is "don't suck" - seriously, what else do you need?

Personally, I don't want to spend another minute trying to unravel the cultural fluff that the arts have become wrapped up in. The truth is in the training.

Matthew

[Bao]

The truth is in the training.

. Just simply, "train hard, go home."

Words of wisdom. The philosopher Wang Yangming (1472-1529) would agree. For him all true knowledge comes from doing, not from thinking.

"...knowledge is the direction for action and action the effort of knowledge,

...knowledge is the beginning of action and action the completion of knowledge."

Oh... But I suppose you won't care, it's Chinese philosophy and culture after all. ...

... And I can't really understand how Confucius could add anything to TCMA practice. The most influential thinker for CMA (and even for TJMA) is after all Wang Yangming, almost 2000 years after Confucius. The analects would be the very last book I would choose to teach my students.

[Taste of Death]

. Just simply, "train hard, go home."

Daniel Pfister said it. I just +1'd it.

[Taijispirit]

..." And I can't really understand how Confucius could add anything to TCMA practice. The most influential thinker for CMA (and even for TJMA) is after all Wang Yangming, almost 2000 years after Confucius. The analects would be the very last book I would choose to teach my students.[/quote]"

that may be short sighted..........I think many great thinkers can have something to add to TCMA.
A saying by Confucious is
"Perfect balance is like still water, let that be our model,..it is calm underneath and remains undisturbed on the surface.
It is exactly what the internal power and function is trying to originate from, perfect balance.
If he never had another thought, that thought alone from Confucious is great insight into the internal arts.

Teaching is debatable, the student needs to have the desire.
The teacher can only point the way, the student need to enter thru the door and travel the path on his own.
Nothing should or can be forced.

[Bao]

..."

And I can't really understand how Confucius could add anything to TCMA practice. The most influential thinker for CMA (and even for TJMA) is after all Wang Yangming, almost 2000 years after Confucius. The analects would be the very last book I would choose to teach my students.

"

that may be short sighted..........I think many great thinkers can have something to add to TCMA.
A saying by Confucious is
"Perfect balance is like still water, let that be our model,..it is calm underneath and remains undisturbed on the surface.
It is exactly what the internal power and function is trying to originate from, perfect balance.
If he never had another thought, that thought alone from Confucious is great insight into the internal arts.

Teaching is debatable, the student needs to have the desire.
The teacher can only point the way, the student need to enter thru the door and travel the path on his own.
Nothing should or can be forced.

True... What I wrote is too generalized. There are quite a few Kongzi quotes that are good. I remember a few others as well now. Both Rujia and Songxue has had impact on the martial arts. Still there are books and thinkers that has had a more direct impact on TCMA and especially on the arts commonly discussed on this board.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Bao,

Confucianism teaches Wu De.

Confucianism paves the road to the right type of relationship between teacher and student who are shifu and tudi.

Confucianism explains the importance of researching the art on one's own (based on the text of 'The Great Learning').

Confucianism elucidates the importance of traditions, allowing people to understand why it is important to keep them. Granted, not all traditions are worth keeping, but those who do, the writings of Confucius will explain their cross-generation and broad social value.

All that and much more. You can teach all of this to students without Confucius, but then again you can just have the students read The Analects and The Great Learning and explain these texts to them. I am not a Confucian by any means (!), but the wisdom of Confucius is crucial for understanding Chinese culture, and is a superb instrument for maintaining proper standard in teaching the arts.

I have written an article about the relationship I see between Confucianism and the martial arts, which I also translated to Hebrew for my students. Among all of the articles I have written outside of my book (21 in number so far), this one is my favourite:

http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/confucianism-and-martial-arts.html

[Franklin]

Bao,

Confucianism teaches Wu De.

Confucianism paves the road to the right type of relationship between teacher and student who are shifu and tudi.

Confucianism explains the importance of researching the art on one's own (based on the text of 'The Great Learning').

Confucianism elucidates the importance of traditions, allowing people to understand why it is important to keep them. Granted, not all traditions are worth keeping, but those who do, the writings of Confucius will explain their cross-generation and broad social value.

All that and much more. You can teach all of this to students without Confucius, but then again you can just have the students read The Analects and The Great Learning and explain these texts to them. I am not a Confucian by any means (!), but the wisdom of Confucius is crucial for understanding Chinese culture, and is a superb instrument for maintaining proper standard in teaching the arts.

I have written an article about the relationship I see between Confucianism and the martial arts, which I also translated to Hebrew for my students. Among all of the articles I have written outside of my book (21 in number so far), this one is my favourite:

http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/confucianism-and-martial-arts.html

can you give an example of a working model of Confucian ethics without corruption or abuse?

Confucianism as an ideal is nice to philosophize about

but put into practice- it doesn't really work..
at least i have not seen an example that I could point people to that would be Confucian ethics or relationship that is an example of the ideals in actual real life...

of course from a superficial examination you might be able to cite an example..
but i have found with deep inspection
or familiarity with the situation- then all the darkness becomes evident...


Franklin

[WongYing]

I was once with a teacher who actively promote like for like thinking, I became very proud when that teacher told you me "you are now 80% close to my thinking and doing" it is only in hindsight I now recognise..there was only 20% of me left ..easy for that teacher to control and manipulate

[WongYing]

in my view ..so often nowadays and perhaps even in past ..the student was educated to follow confucian WuDe without deviation..yet the teacher could do as they please all under the whip of dont disrespect your ShiFu..no WuDe

Much like the samurai who loyaly followed giri but the shoguns were whoring, drinking, war mongering meglomaniacs

[Bao]

Bao,
Confucianism teaches Wu De.
Confucianism paves the road to the right type of relationship between teacher and student who are shifu and tudi.

The Wude in confucianism is based on a Hierarchy where the higher person (here teacher) can demand anything of the lower (here student) and can make up the rules for "wude" just as he please.

Confucianism explains the importance of researching the art on one's own (based on the text of 'The Great Learning').

Very different from modern Chinese teaching where no one is encouraged to think. Most modern TCMA teaching is based on modern learning system, not on traditional Confucianism.

Confucianism elucidates the importance of traditions, allowing people to understand why it is important to keep them. Granted, not all traditions are worth keeping, but those who do, the writings of Confucius will explain their cross-generation and broad social value.

...from the perspective of hierarchy where there's no equality between people...

...and is a superb instrument for maintaining proper standard in teaching the arts.

Your attitude toward students is far, far away from what I would call "proper standard in teaching". I understand why you like Rujia. Yes, it's good for maintaining power and control.

In Japan for a few years ago, a teacher killed a seven year old girl, pressing her to death in a door. She came late to the class.

This is how Confucianism can work in action when the teacher wants a "proper standard in teaching".

can you give an example of a working model of Confucian ethics without corruption or abuse?

Not without abuse.

Confucianism as an ideal is nice to philosophize about

Confucianism is idealism. It demands that the people on top are righteous and good and cannot be corrupted. But because they have absolute power over the people below.... Well... Power corrupts. And because we speak about hierarchy, it abuse becomes natural.

in my view ..so often nowadays and perhaps even in past ..the student was educated to follow confucian WuDe without deviation..yet the teacher could do as they please all under the whip of dont disrespect your ShiFu..no WuDe

Exactly.

.....

There's a saying in China that a child must listen to and obey anything the parents says just because they are parents. Any stupid thing they say, you can't disagree because your parent said it. I know a teenage girl who was almost beaten to death by her mother because she disagreed with the education the mother had chosen for her. There's also a true story about a father killing his daughter and her husband because he thought they disrespected him. He showed no remorse, just said that the daughter must take responsibility for disobeying him as a father. There are many, many stores similar to these.

This is part of the heritage of Confucianism in modern China. There's no sense of equality, or equal rights. There's no respect for the other. There's no wude.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Franklin - you were discussing the application of Confucianism to society as a whole. I am referring to its relevance to teaching martial arts. Your subject of discussion is very interesting but begs another thread entirely. Suffice to say that with all the ugliness, injustice and horrors perpetrated by those who adopted and adapted Confucianism over the generations, it still served as the backbone of Chinese society, culture and civilization for over two millennia. That alone cannot be ignored or negated.

Bao, you are very cynical in your view of Confucianism. It is alright that you interpret in a more negative manner. After all, Confucianism is far from being perfect. But no system of thought or religion are. We may choose to use each to be inspired positively from their more enlightened and insightful lessons, or we can mock their inaccuracies and moral faults, deeming them anachronistic and silly. The problem with the latter approach is, that by adopting cynicism as such we are unable to learn from the wisdom of those who came before us. Those who are too wise to rely on the lessons of their forefathers, find themselves having to re-invent their entire way of life. This is a mark of our generation as a whole, since the dawn of modern technology. It has not been going so well if you ask me.

Funny how hard people try bashing and changing these traditions with all sorts of novel interpretations. What haven't I seen by now... Some claim the Dao De Jing to be a dictator-guidebook for how to keep the people dumb and down. Others like the CEO monks of the modern Shaolin temple think that somehow the teachings of the Buddha mean they need to be driven around in Audi A8s. There are those who take Judaism to mean you should oppress all gay people, and those who wage wars in the name and glory of the pacifist son of God. To each his own.

I do my best to allow my student an intellectual venue through which it is possible for them to connect with Chinese culture. By this I make an honest attempt to point out the positives in that culture, and how these can improve their lives - physically, mentally, spiritually, socially. For them, modern Israelis, this is usually the first time and opportunity to have such exposure and education. I therefore attempt to make sure it is broad, sincere, useful, relates to what they learn in class, and can lead them to intellectual independence on that front. This is also my way of making sure each of my student who stays with me for at least a few months earns a knowledge of the roots of the Chinese arts. I will not sit aside and complain of the Westerners that know little of what their arts truly mean. I will not criticize viciously the many problems with Chinese traditions and then wonder how is it that my students are not interested in them. My approach is different to yours, and so will be our students.

This approach of mine is demonstrated in my article concerning Confucianism and the martial arts, to which I have linked above.

[Serena]

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