sparring for striking (a guide)

[cloudz]

Hi.. Further to John's thread I thought this was worth a post. I realize Johns story wasn't about sparring per se, but some of the subsequent replies reminded me of a great post I read elsewhere in regards to sparring involving striking.

I post this on the premise that exposing oneself to practices that increase the likelihood of injury are unnecessary. I speak as someone who has hurt their hands in real fights by landing on hard heads and teeth. I think the premise of conditioning the hand that is made up of a relatively numerous amount of small bones whilst not totally unworthy or pointless is in general "missing the point" as it can in no way serve as an excuse for sub optimal sparring practices for striking. Once you have a good base and can handle good amounts of contact and intensity it may be to your advantage to introduce sparring practices that are tailored to more specific requirements. However it would be worth remembering that these cannot and do not replace the benefits of what's described here.

None of this changes the fact, that in any case "accidents will happen"..

Another caveat is that any of this only really matters and aligns to any goals of any given individual. No one has to spar in my opinion, but for those that do and want an environment that encourages learning and growth from basic/ fundamental through to intermediate and then advanced you need a solid grounding and practice. if you can't practice regularly because of injuries you are only doing yourselves an injustice in the long run by depriving yourselves because of some macho bullshit.

Sparring is for the betterment of every style(and individual), and every style/system has basic techniques at least to begin with, if not all manner of strategy - some styles are nice enough to insist on your strategy for you. Well ok, it might only be taiji IMO, but that's another topic.

I've cut and pasted this from elsewhere, but it very much reflects my own experiences and thoughts in regards the topic of sparring. I do hope that it can encourage and help more traditional teachers to use sparring as a central and vital method for raising the standard in their systems..

Oh and I have taken the liberty to re word a few parts and leave a few bits out. FWIW it is written by someone with around 30 years experience from Kung Fu through to MMA and grappling.

Some hard sparring can be healthy and a good thing but in general sparring should be largely technical in nature, if you are sparring at a pace and level of contact where you are scared to try new stuff and scared to get hit, you aren’t learning you are surviving and it’s not sustainable

For the most part people don’t know how to coach sparring and how to do so progressively and safely. It’s a skill that has to be learned.

Many teachers, particularly in traditional styles don’t know the skill so you end up with 1 of three things
1) No sparring
2) Sparring at an inappropriate level of contact which leads to way too many injuries, no one learning and people leaving so teachers drop sparring and go back to point 1
3) Sparring with inappropriate levels of protection which leads either
a. to too many injuries and leads you to point 2 above, then to point 1 above
b. too little actual contact and to slap happy sparring with no power and poor technical levels (which is probably the worst of all the problems because it makes people think they know how to fight and can fight)

If you aren’t in fight prep mode your sparring should be safe and fun, yes you will get hit, but if you are worried about getting a damaged nose, concussion etc. in your weekly sparring you need to find another school because it’s not a learning environment.
If your school has you sparring regularly in fingerless gloves, 4 oz MMA gloves or bag gloves, get out, the vast majority of your striking sparring should be with 14 or 16oz boxing gloves and shin guards, cup and gum shield should be mandatory and this is for all striking training even MMA
MMA specific ground sparring, clinch sparring etc should be with 7oz gloves at the most, 4oz are for fighting NOT training

If anyone wants the link to where this came from I will happily provide it. But for now, thanks to "icefield".

[I am...]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I agree with this part of it though:

if you are sparring at a pace and level of contact where you are scared to try new stuff and scared to get hit, you aren’t learning you are surviving

[cloudz]

There is, but most good ones follow the same principles at least. The ones that don't end up with mess around and things chopped up in ways that shouldn't be and in comparison may not leave as good a result.

Good chefs may use different cutting techniques or start and finish in different places, go in a different order, sometimes different animals will require different tactics and approaches.

Of course anytime you want to get away from analogies and talk specifics that would be great. But this was never meant to be comprehensive and cover every way there is. That's why it's good to discuss. I understand you have a solid background in competition fighting (Sanshou/Sanda), so any further insight on other ways to skin this cat to share with everyone would be great.

If you start with a goal to spar well with pretty much anyone in a striking format, I think there's a fairly optimal way of doing so. Give or take.. Style considerations may need adjustments and further specialized 'ways'. But my main point with this in particular is that you can't really get the "best of both worlds" without doing at least some of your regular sparring work in this way. When it comes to striking; Protecting your hands with gloves allows for levels of contact and safety that if missing create a less optimal base than you otherwise could have.

[cloudz]

It's different if you get to work with the same people over a long period where you build up trust and rapport. This is more "a general guide" I would say. At least to get things going and build a base off.

[I am...]

There is, but most good ones follow the same principles at least. The ones that don't end up with mess around and things chopped up in ways that shouldn't be and in comparison may not leave as good a result.

Good chefs may use different cutting techniques or start and finish in different places, go in a different order, sometimes different animals will require different tactics and approaches.

Of course anytime you want to get away from analogies and talk specifics that would be great. But this was never meant to be comprehensive and cover every way there is. That's why it's good to discuss. I understand you have a solid background in competition fighting (Sanshou/Sanda), so any further insight on other ways to skin this cat to share with everyone would be great.

If you start with a goal to spar well with pretty much anyone in a striking format, I think there's a fairly optimal way of doing so. Give or take.. Style considerations may need adjustments and further specialized 'ways'. But my main point with this in particular is that you can't really get the "best of both worlds" without doing at least some of your regular sparring work in this way. When it comes to striking; Protecting your hands with gloves allows for levels of contact and safety that if missing create a less optimal base than you otherwise could have.

I think for starters, it is important to define what the sparring is for and how it is being used in the overall development of a fighter. In sport fighting arenas I would consider it a huge piece of the puzzle and agree that larger gloves and protective gear are good as they promote contact while reducing hesitation, fear of injury and get one used to the demands of the specific rule set and equipment one will be using while fighting. Sparring can be second to none in developing strategies, timing, understanding of reach, speed, power and other more chaotic realities of combat.

I also find sparring to be a liability outside of the sports specific stage if not used properly as it often promotes a "waiting/feeling out" mindset in many, the gloves can really limit the development one needs to use changing hand shapes and making those shapes effective for specific intended targets that most Chinese Martial Arts make use of. Gloves and gear do not force a fighter to develop an eye and mind for putting the right weapon in the right place at the right time. Often the hand shape, choice and placement of an anatomical weapon is a skill that not only maximizes damage dealt, but also protects the one inflicting the damage from damaging their own weapons. Sparring with gear can also allow a fighter to think they can absorb damage as part of their strategy, something that anyone that works with blades regularly as well as the weapons mindset in general will recognize as extremely undesirable. In these cases sparring can be a good piece of the puzzle but drilling, and focus on specific skills and situations can produce much more solid results.

There are at least a few pro boxers that did no sparring at all in their training camps, yet still regularly ruined the day of their opponents.

[dspyrido]

There are at least a few pro boxers that did no sparring at all in their training camps, yet still regularly ruined the day of their opponents.

I find that hard to believe or perhaps I am misunderstanding the context. Any examples?

Even if they did not spar (which I am doubting) they would have had to sparred a lot so as to later be in a position to minimize sparring. Effectively they would be shadow boxing and practising reaction drills with the right pretrained context.

[johnwang]

There are at least a few pro boxers that did no sparring at all in their training camps, yet still regularly ruined the day of their opponents.

If you don't spar/wrestle for 3 days, your arms and legs will no longer be yours.

[dspyrido]

Another caveat is that any of this only really matters and aligns to any goals of any given individual. No one has to spar in my opinion, but for those that do and want an environment that encourages learning and growth from basic/ fundamental through to intermediate and then advanced you need a solid grounding and practice. if you can't practice regularly because of injuries you are only doing yourselves an injustice in the long run by depriving yourselves because of some macho bullshit.

No one has to spar. No one has to test moves in a slightly unstructured way either. But if this is not done at all then it's not martial/combat arts. Its fitness, health dance, meditation or whatever. The body needs to clash to build endurance and condition the bones. The reaction skills need to be developed and the ability to react to uncertainty is vital in martial arts.

As for testing formats - there are many ways to test with striking. Kids pad right up in twd and the odds of damage are very low. At a minimum if someone is afraid to be hit then dress up like a ninja turtle. Over time drop padding, increase impact and loosen up the rules of what areas can be hit.

I know you are suggesting to spar carefully and sensibly. That should be a given. But what many so called martail arts schools do is go too far the other way doing so much "safe" that it looses the original essence.

The biggest issue in many schools is the belief that what is being done is real because they are following traditions, someone told them, they read it in a book or they just believe it. I've seen too many scholar warriors prancing around claiming superior knowledge and skill only to see that on the first clash they look absolutely stupid. They can sight texts, quote famous artists, explain the history, recite eastern medicine & spiritualist texts yet when fist meets face they seize up like a dear in the headlights.

[willie]

back in my old karate days, 30 years ago. we fight/sparred with 4oz gloves. I don't see why he said get out of there?
in MMA we mostly used 14-16oz standard boxing gloves, but sometimes we trained with 4oz gloves for valetudo.
The 4oz are the best to train with as you still can use good gripping techniques and open hand stuff.

[I am...]

There are at least a few pro boxers that did no sparring at all in their training camps, yet still regularly ruined the day of their opponents.

I find that hard to believe or perhaps I am misunderstanding the context. Any examples?

Even if they did not spar (which I am doubting) they would have had to sparred a lot so as to later be in a position to minimize sparring. Effectively they would be shadow boxing and practising reaction drills with the right pretrained context.

Look it up for yourself, you can find the info in this book for starters.


Workouts from Boxing's Greatest Champs: Get in Shape with Muhammad Ali, Fernando Vargas, Roy Jones Jr., and Other Legends Paperback – November 30, 2004

[cloudz]

I also find sparring to be a liability outside of the sports specific stage if not used properly as it often promotes a "waiting/feeling out" mindset in many, the gloves can really limit the development one needs to use changing hand shapes and making those shapes effective for specific intended targets that most Chinese Martial Arts make use of.

These are good observations, that I agree with. To cover these I like to use "sparring drills", like giving someone a specific role. Working without hands protection (slow motion/light touch contact) or working just to the body or using things like helmets become mitigated. IOW the weaknesses of otherwise using them in of themselves are compensated for by the aforementioned type of sparring.

You may well do similar things I imagine.

Gloves and gear do not force a fighter to develop an eye and mind for putting the right weapon in the right place at the right time.

They can and do limit options - I would go that far. But in that environment you can still discover what it's like to use "the right thing at the right time" - but perhaps in a more scaled down series of options both incoming and outgoing (if that makes sense).

Often the hand shape, choice and placement of an anatomical weapon is a skill that not only maximizes damage dealt, but also protects the one inflicting the damage from damaging their own weapons. Sparring with gear can also allow a fighter to think they can absorb damage as part of their strategy, something that anyone that works with blades regularly as well as the weapons mindset in general will recognize as extremely undesirable. In these cases sparring can be a good piece of the puzzle but drilling, and focus on specific skills and situations can produce much more solid results.

There are at least a few pro boxers that did no sparring at all in their training camps, yet still regularly ruined the day of their opponents.

You know I can't find a lot wrong with that. But it's important to note that those boxers would have had experience anyway if that's the case. I have no real reason to doubt it, but I would have thought it pretty unusual. Sometimes the talented people get away with all sorts of murder lol.

The experience part I think also applies with the larger paragraph. Without that part of the puzzle empty hand fighting won't happen to the same level of proficiency. Of course as soon as you bring weapons into the equation "everything" changes and it's a different discussion altogether; in terms of approach, mind-set, tactics - all sorts.

Whilst I also find it far from perfect given different goals as you say.. In terms of applying technique whether defensively or offensively doing so in a live setting is pretty indispensable.

If not "full" sparring in a class then at a minimum I am looking for some drill that has live work in it usually.

My feeling is that in general all CMA really should come together (traditional and sport) and more often than not be able to offer a Sanda/Sanshou program of some sort in the cirriculums on offer. Going forward I can only see it strengthening CMA. But at the same time I don't want to see it replace or necessarily change the more traditional technique that fall outside of the rule-set. That's pretty important to me too..

regards

[cloudz]

back in my old karate days, 30 years ago. we fight/sparred with 4oz gloves. I don't see why he said get out of there?
in MMA we mostly used 14-16oz standard boxing gloves, but sometimes we trained with 4oz gloves for valetudo.
The 4oz are the best to train with as you still can use good gripping techniques and open hand stuff.

Well there was some bits I left out. Like he mentions things like helmets and what not.
My experience with 4oz willie is that when I tried them for sparring I didn't feel right letting my punches go, so all we could do was 'light sparring' to be honest - where contact was concerned.

I just think you can separate out grappling and when combining it you can combine enough of it with bigger gloves.
If you're going to fight it's different, I just think the contact will be too hard or not enough (due to taking care) to be worth persevering - for sparring purposes.

I think sometimes combining with helmets might be ok, but that comes back to the issue of taking damage.
You should be able to feel something and not like it, not even in terms of pain but why get hit unless you just can't avoid it.

I think with helmets due to the impaired vision and often you may hardly feel most of the stuff (depending), it's one of those (smaller gloves plus helmets) that I think would be a useful addition from time to time but not the main thing.

I once used padded headgear with open hand in a limited sparring drill and it was pretty good I thought. I really enjoyed training my bitch slaps that day!
I just think it's better to take a mixed approach to tackle some of the shortcomings, but have at least 1 main standard.

[windwalker]

I also find sparring to be a liability outside of the sports specific stage if not used properly as it often promotes a "waiting/feeling out" mindset in many, the gloves can really limit the development one needs to use changing hand shapes and making those shapes effective for specific intended targets that most Chinese Martial Arts make use of.

I think this is really worth noting. Ring and out side of it are very specific skill sets. While there are some overlapping concepts there are also things that are not....One of the important ones being that there is no idea of rule sets or equality outside of it...inside of it everything is matched to give both people an equal chance with the out come being based on mostly on skill.

People who compete are often more capable with what ever they practice because they have to be to win...This is not say that those who do not are not. Only to say that competitions are not training. They are the end result of training.

[cloudz]

competitions can be "training" - it's all in the mind I think (that stuff)

however you train will involve some ruleset, so on that level it really doesn't make any difference. There is the whole habit argument, and I think that's a fair assessment. For that reason I always try to take time exploring alternatives, scenarios, training methods and stuff I have encountered.

It should always be noted sparring shouldn't be "the" goal necessarily, but rather a vital cog to reaching a broader goal or goals perhaps - if one has that. And yes, I do have that I believe. Though in the end that's for each person to consider and I'm happy to help others with their goals, whatever they may be.

Workarounds David, that's the name of the game here for me.
But I can't stress enough ( I guess) the foundation has to be there/ be developed - IMO/IME ( the usual disclaimers)

[dspyrido]

Workouts from Boxing's Greatest Champs: Get in Shape with Muhammad Ali, Fernando Vargas, Roy Jones Jr., and Other Legends Paperback – November 30, 2004

Many sources say ali and roy both sparred. The clarifier is they may have only spent 10-25% of a day sparring but they sparred. They also did a lot of live pad drills and a lot of shadow boxing which would be reinforced by the sparring.

This is different to many mma fighters who spend probably 50% of the day doing technique practise in grappling/sparring.

The common theme is sparring is foundational part of all martial arts. It builds timing, awareness, sensitivity, conditioning and technique skill. At more experienced levels it can be adapted for more conditioning routines but it should not be dropped.